Martin McGuinness

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:22 am

So Maggie ordering the destruction of an enemy warship during conflict is an issue?

I'm impressed with that conclusion.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:24 am

And MM and Co won their war and were in time duly elected so, yes indeed, appreciate it as such and move on............

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:25 am

Hello Tom..

I am not going to do that..the history is complex and my time today is limited.

I wasn't offering a value judgment on it..saying that the Argentinians deserve to regain control because the Islands belong to them...we have no right being there...I wasn't saying that.

I just have a gut feeling that pressure will grow on us [from others including Argentina] to cede control and slowly steadily remove British influence..
- the Argies have never given up on this and I think that in the next half century or so, we will compromise. Just a hunch really.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:25 am

People love taking sides about this crap, same with Palestine / Israel. Feels important, yeah?

OK, loads of people did plenty of horrible, murderous s**t. Not because they're Catholic or British or Irish or Jewish or Arab, just because they're people and that's what we do. McGuiness did his share too but unless you want to keep calling each other names - and those who go beyond 'keyboard warrior' guff to stop blowing folk up - then at some point you'll have to talk to each other and put it behind you.

If people who've had family members killed can slowly build a peace then surely halfwits sat behind a computer who've never even seen these places can try and move on too.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:28 am

hampsteadclaret wrote:Hello Tom..

I am not going to do that..the history is complex and my time today is limited.

I wasn't offering a value judgment on it..saying that the Argentinians deserve to regain control because the Islands belong to them...we have no right being there...I wasn't saying that.

I just have a gut feeling that pressure will grow on us [from others including Argentina] to cede control and slowly steadily remove British influence..
- the Argies have never given up on this and I think that in the next half century or so, we will compromise. Just a hunch really.

What about the choice of the residents of the Falklands when they chose to remain under the protection of the UK?

Ultimately that's all that matters in that case, regardless of how much Argentina want the recently discovered oil that's under the Falklands, the residents made a choice.

lakesclaret · Post by **lakesclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:29 am

We did plenty of murdering ourselves...do you want me to list them all?

There you are HC

Happy to use the lives lost in what was a war for all intents and purposes to further your petty internet squabbles.

As for " getting under anyone's skin" it's pretty exclusively the internet pastime of cowards, coffee shop warriors and people who would never dream of taking part in a face to face discussion using disrespectful language,slurs or presumptions when discussing an incendiary issue such as that.

As for your Belgrano comparisons, you're so far wide of the context ( comparing NI to the Falklands invasion) there's no point in any discussion as your politics are so polarised by your hatred of Thatcher .

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:30 am

Well yes Sidney..I am no military man in the slightest, but apparently in many war situations 'Rules of Engagement' exist...which both sides should be aware of.

IF these rules are broken, then I would expect that a number of questions will soon be flying about.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:41 am

56..I don't know Sidney.

A bit simplistic this but..we until fairly recently had control of Hong Kong.

The Chinese took control in 1997.

Just imagine..we wanted to keep control and Hong Kong citizens wanted the British to stay in control.
Is that the outcome then?

No..of course not.
The Chinese will take control no matter what anyone else says or thinks.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:49 am

Er, we only had Hong Kong on a lease, we had no legal right to keep it

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:50 am

57.

Earlier I said this..

'16/17 Ha...I don't need any history lessons from you two, especially from you lakesclaret whose grasp of many topics seems minimalist.
We did plenty of murdering ourselves...do you want me to list them all?'

I refer here to [British] history..in all sorts of wars, with all sorts of dates, in many different world locations.

So...dump your clumsy attempts to misrepresent me, where they best fit.

This sort of rubbish is why I don't take you seriously.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:53 am

60..I said it was a bit simplistic.
Thanks for your input..I should have read up on it.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:55 am

No probs Hampstead

But its a totally different case to the Falklands btw

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:09 pm

No one has ever really 'owned' the Falklands before have they?

It's had various settlements on there from different countries, but it's been under British rule since the 1800's.

I suppose it depends on which candidates are up for election as to how much aggro they make about it.

lakesclaret · Post by **lakesclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:16 pm

HC

The subject was MM and the IRA and your answer is a very poor cop out, even for your " Islington history" style interpretations of British Military history.

Il leave you be HC as communication with you vaguely resembles what a Dianna Abbot/Jeremy Corbyn/Shami Chakrabarti threesome would be like,soppy,saggy,flabby with the distinct lack of a money shot

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:22 pm

As for McGuiness, I hope he rots in h3ll and, for me, the sooner the better.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:25 pm

TB/63...I don't really get your post or agree with it..am I misunderstanding you?

You say..'Your use of the word 'back' showed you to be as biased as anyone on this'.

Sorry..I am innocent..[?] I just had a quick look to confirm for myself that in the last 500 years or so, the 'ownership' of the Falkland Islands has changed a few times. I am simply saying that [on the law of averages] I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again...my estimate was fifty years - a guesstimate...really not clear what you are saying about bias there.

you say..'and the other issues you've given us your opinion on in this thread'.
Well isn't that what this forum is for?
Is the forum not about sharing opinions? [fortunately this forum welcomes opinions on matters other than football]

You say that I have a 'one-eyed view' of many of the issues on this thread.

With respect, I would not have put it like that.
I usually read about an issue and think about it..then read some more and come to a conclusion.
In your world that will give me 'a one-eyed view'.
No..not correct.

For example FIFA have said that they are going to move to a 48 team entry for future World Cups.
I have thought about this for a while and have concluded this is the wrong way to go, it's a mistake.
Does this make me myopic?

As far as Ireland is concerned, I have read around a bit and thought about it, and come to a few conclusions.
I thought we all did this.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:28 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:23..BOT..'he was attempting to defend his country from a heavily armed and unwanted invading foreign aggressor'....

Well..which bit don't you like?
Which bit is a lie? Which word is wrong.

I wouldn't say it's a lie, I'd just say that it's plain wrong and could have come straight out the IRA recruitment handbook at the time.

You've said twice now on this thread that you don't have the time or that your time is limited, yet you've had the time to go into anything else (pretty inaccurately as well) but what we were posting about. That tells me that you're struggling.

I shall leave you to your thread from now, I say your thread because you've made it about anything but Martin McGuinness.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:30 pm

HC, we do, but it depends which books you read. If you read the Republican version of events you will come to a different conclusion than if you had read the British version of the same events. Personal feeling also comes into it as to which side you prefer.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:33 pm

66.

Why don't you get it?
- quite a lot of our military history is not much to be proud of..how do you think we acquired a lot of the British Empire..by sitting down and drinking tea with them?
It wasn't like that.

Islington?

Dianna Abbot/Jeremy Corbyn/Shami Chakrabarti...funny choices.
I cannot stand any of them.
Have another go.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:36 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:66.

Why don't you get it?
- quite a lot of our military history is not much to be proud of..how do you think we acquired a lot of the British Empire..by sitting down and drinking tea with them?
It wasn't like that.

Funnily enough it was a different era, so whilst you're clearly not very happy about what happened a hundred odd years ago, a lot of us just let it slide.

You do seem to have a real issue with it though.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:47 pm

69.BOT

You can call it my thread if you want but a lot of people posted comments/replies to me.

Should I ignore these [can you imagine what would be said?] or should I reply to them?

I think I've responded to every one.

One's replies lead to more posts coming your way..and so it goes.

I thought this was how we were supposed to do it.

Often..threads go off topic - I said 'sorry' above for taking this one [slightly] off topic.

you say..'you've made it about anything but Martin McGuinness'..

I've said all I wanted to or needed to, about him.

ralph · Post by **ralph** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:48 pm

BennyD wrote:HC, we do, but it depends which books you read. If you read the Republican version of events you will come to a different conclusion than if you had read the British version of the same events. Personal feeling also comes into it as to which side you prefer.

True enough but a historian will try to read them all ... consider the evidence and reach a conclusion.(in this instance it is complex certainly more complex than is taught in UK schools

) The truth of Ireland is that time is the only possible healer ... the period of revolution and particularly civil war in Ireland 1916-1923 had a devastating effect on families and polarised society it's taken until probably the last twenty years for some of the repercussions to drift away from modern Ireland.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:03 pm

Just think how messed up this country would be if we made financial reparations for our part in the slave trade.

I know it's completely off topic, but always something to remember when discussion of world affairs is taking place.

Or imagine how messed up we'd be if we sent all immigrants (living) and descendants away and welcomed all emigrants (living) and descendants back to the UK.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:04 pm

73..Sidney

'You do seem to have a real issue with it though...' you say..

That's a bit strong.

What I would say is that a written British version[s] of events in our history, including our military history, would look very different to many other's descriptions and interpretations of those same events..ie - we have a biased view of our own history. This is generally a kinder, more supportive view than what some others may write about us.

This is not new and it's not surprising. Many others do it I am sure when looking at themselves.

Doesn't mean it's right though.

I think it makes sense to sometimes question what you are told..whether it's about what sort of person Martin McGuinness really is, events at sea in a military confrontation, what really happened at 9/11, and does that journalist's summary of that Burnley match confirm what you saw with your own eyes.
- as we know, often it doesn't.

EDIT: meant to say this.

There are some people on this forum who know quite a lot of history, [LC for one] including military history..which is the 'correct view' of our own history?

ralph · Post by **ralph** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:12 pm

history is " a maze of opinion,contradiction and hearsay " - Trevor Fear

discuss in say 600 words ..

I'll mark it later

50 shades of Grey · Post by **50 shades of Grey** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:13 pm

'vaguely resembles what a Dianna Abbot/Jeremy Corbyn/Shami Chakrabarti threesome would be like,soppy,saggy,flabby with the distinct lack of a money shot'....

What a foul image. That statement alone should be more than enough to lock this thread.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:13 pm

Fair points Hampstead but you have to be very careful not to have too much revisionist history.

Always good to have balance

ralph · Post by **ralph** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:17 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Fair points Hampstead but you have to be very careful not to have too much revisionist history.

Always good to have balance

Indeed try this one ...

In what ways did the nationalist narrative of the past influence attitudes towards Ireland's built heritage since independence ?

1200 words maximum

Healeywoodclaret · Post by **Healeywoodclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:22 pm

Woodleyclaret wrote:Should have been held accountable for his involvement in Bloody Sunday.The press were quick to critise the paras but he was invloved in fanning the flames.Those involved on the Republican side are getting off lightly.

Agreed. Bringing ex Paras back now to face trial for doing their jobs ( who are now in their sixties) is disgusting. McGuiness is a murderer and should have faced trial for his crimes. Oh and this period should never be referred to as "the troubles " this was a war in our own backyard and I'm sure a terrifying experience for young British Soldiers serving in Northern Ireland at the time.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:26 pm

Healeywoodclaret wrote:Agreed. Bringing ex Paras back now to face trial for doing their jobs ( who are now in their sixties) is disgusting. McGuiness is a murderer and should have faced trial for his crimes. Oh and this period should never be referred to as "the troubles " this was a war in our own backyard and I'm sure a terrifying experience for young British Soldiers serving in Northern Ireland at the time.

My dad still has issues in regards to PTSD now.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:27 pm

Can I use the word "Celtic Tiger" more than once?

The history of the Republic is about as far from my speciality as its possible to be!

One thing that I will say is that the Good Friday agreement required the UK, the Protestants and the Catholics in the north, the IRA, the various Protestant fighters and the Republic to take a massive risk, and all should be lauded for that, whatever their past.

*Though there has to be a complete immunity on prosecutions for both sides really

Healeywoodclaret · Post by **Healeywoodclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Sidney1st wrote:My dad still has issues in regards to PTSD now.

My husband was out there up until 1990 and still suffers from PTSD. And here we have our wikipedia cutters and pasters with their very strong views of something they have only read about. I was there with him as a military wife. Remember all the cutters and pasters on here (hampstead) if you had seen one of your best mates blown to smithereens with just a bit of blood skin and snot left behind you would have a completely different view.

ralph · Post by **ralph** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:53 pm

Yes and if you'd have been dragged out of your terraced house in the late 60's and watched a loyalist death squad torch it you might have a different view .. you've just highlighted the problem ... and it won't change until the years have passed.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:56 pm

My old boss at the ferry company I used to work at told us this story about him parking his car on a double yellow while seeing a customer in the north and asking him if there was any danger of it being towed away

The reply?

"We only shoot two types of people in Moy, traffic wardens and Brits, its fine where it is"

Point is that whatever horrible experiences both sides have had, the situation now is miles better than it was then, and that is a good thing.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:08 pm

Healeywoodclaret wrote:My husband was out there up until 1990 and still suffers from PTSD. And here we have our wikipedia cutters and pasters with their very strong views of something they have only read about. I was there with him as a military wife. Remember all the cutters and pasters on here (hampstead) if you had seen one of your best mates blown to smithereens with just a bit of blood skin and snot left behind you would have a completely different view.

My parents were out there together, I was born out there as a result.

My mum remembers being in the barracks when they were morter bombed.

Healeywoodclaret · Post by **Healeywoodclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:17 pm

ralph wrote:Yes and if you'd have been dragged out of your terraced house in the late 60's and watched a loyalist death squad torch it you might have a different view .. you've just highlighted the problem ... and it won't change until the years have passed.

Question : were you dragged from your terraced house in the late sixties and did you watch a loyalist death squad torch it?

Or did you read about it?

Feelings on this sort of thing run very deep on both sides and will never go away. It will always be bubbling under the surface.

Healeywoodclaret · Post by **Healeywoodclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:18 pm

Sidney1st wrote:My parents were out there together, I was born out there as a result.

My mum remembers being in the barracks when they were morter bombed.

You were probably born at the Royal Ulster Dundonald where I gave birth to my son.

vinrogue · Post by **vinrogue** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:23 pm

In response to an earlier post about sinking the Argie ship sailing away from the Falklands. If my memory is correct when we sailed from the Ascension Islands we zig zagged the South Atlantic, some days sailing South others East and then North etc, all the time trying to fox the enemy. All ships in the South Atlantic with the exception of the Hospital ships were part of the conflict no matter in which direction the were heading. We were only told we were landing at San Carlos about 24 hours prior. I will not say too much about MM but safe to say I know him for what he was in the 1970's and if only 20% is accurate then he above many deserves to face trial but never will.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:25 pm

Healeywoodclaret wrote:You were probably born at the Royal Ulster Dundonald where I gave birth to my son.

Craigavon Hospital, County Armagh

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:33 pm

Dont sign him. His Uncle Wilf was a much better player.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:21 pm

[quote="hampsteadclaret"]66.

Why don't you get it?
- quite a lot of our military history is not much to be proud of..how do you think we acquired a lot of the British Empire..by sitting down and drinking tea with them?
It wasn't like that.

Part of Hong Kong was not leased but was "ours" but keeping it when the rest went to China under treaties was unlikey as the water came from China and all they had to do was stop the supply of same.
We only started drinking tea with our would be colonies after India.

It was amazing how successful a cuppa is at getting acquiescence. That and the odd gunboat.

I am with you HC on the Falklands and have been surprised shared "ownership" hasn't come to pass already. Would help if the Argies stopped having too many failed Governments and corrupt politicians.

Will be visiting Falklands and the Argentina in a few weeks so will let you know the SP at both places

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:23 pm

"Will be visiting Falklands and the Argentina in a few weeks so will let you know the SP at both places."

Think we can guess the SP .....

Argentina has no more claim to the Falklands than we do. So it's ours.

Back to thread,

The history of NI is complex and bloody. The way forward is what matters. I think a South African style truth commission would have been better than interviewing 70/80 yr olds about what their perceived threat was in the 60s and 70s. Like them or loathe them (and I have truly loathed them) MM and GA are a big part of the way forward. They didn't win; the winners are the future generations living without the levels of violence that we witnessed and suffered.

ralph · Post by **ralph** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Healeywoodclaret wrote:
Feelings on this sort of thing run very deep on both sides and will never go away. It will always be bubbling under the surface.

Yes I know which was exactly the point I was making ... I can assure you the level of hatred after the CIVIL WAR in the Free State/Republic ran deep sometimes WITHIN THE SAME FAMILY and it lasted for decades it's only in the past generation that some of those feelings have gone ... as long as you talk about sides and dig up the past it will never go away ... don't forget the residents whatever their background didn't choose to be there ... a lot chose to leave frightened for their lives ...

Reconciliation is the only future ... how many of us have German or Japanese consumer goods ? I knew a couple of old chaps who'd been in Japanese POW camps who would turn pale at the thought of Japanese cars and goods flooding the UK but guess what life goes on and at the moment we've stopped killing each other ... which is good.

ralph · Post by **ralph** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:29 pm

By the way if the two fellas mentioned throughout had won you'd probably now have some kind of Marxist state across the whole island ... nobody "won" thankfully the penny dropped and the men of violence realised there was never going to be a winner ... and no I didn't read it it actually happened to a close friend who was then moved to Dublin for the duration by his suitably terrified father - is that okay with you ? .. and that's enough from me on this subject.

Healeywoodclaret · Post by **Healeywoodclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:29 pm

ralph wrote:By the way if the two fellas mentioned throughout had won you'd probably now have some kind of Marxist state across the whole island ... nobody "won" thankfully the penny dropped and the men of violence realised there was never going to be a winner ... and no I didn't read it it actually happened to a close friend who was then moved to Dublin for the duration by his suitably terrified father - is that okay with you ? .. and that's enough from me on this subject.

No need for attitude.

Healeywoodclaret · Post by **Healeywoodclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:30 pm

People are usually suitably terrified in those situations because war and extreme violence is terrifying.

Healeywoodclaret · Post by **Healeywoodclaret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:35 pm

The blood and guts by the way happened to more than one of our very close friends.

ralph · Post by **ralph** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:39 pm

No attitude I asked whether an eye witness account was acceptable .. I didn't read it but if I had I would have read other accounts and taken a balanced view .. but that's because I like to consider more than one viewpoint.

The tragedy of Ireland is that in the past not many others did ..

I've no time for those two guys by the way no time at all they had an agenda without a doubt but we must move on and keep the peace up there.

Done now ..

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:06 pm

I have no liking at all for MM or GA.
I did several tours spanning the early 70's through to the early 90's, I was involved in and saw some things I would rather forget but like many others, can't. I don't have PTSD or any other mental health issues but I am more emotional than I care to be and can shed tears at random things that never used to bother me.
MM & GA were always politically motivated and for all my loathing of their involvement in terrorism at the highest level they brought stability and hope for those future generations that genuinely want progress and peace.

However the Good Friday Agreement that allowed convicted murderers to wander back into society as returning heroes cannot be allowed to stand if it is one directional, eiher the line is drawn in the sand or it isn't.

Every incident when rounds were fired by the Security Forces, whether someone was hit or not was investigated at the time, if no new EVIDENCE has come to light (not hearsay) it is just a moneyspinner for the Irwin Mitchell's and other such parasites.

I won't be drawn into debate or argument over this either but I would like to say MM looks anything but healthy. What a bitch.

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:54 pm

Lancasterclaret Post 79

"Fair points Hampstead but you have to be very careful not to have too much revisionist history.

Always good to have balance"

I would have thought the whole point of "revisionist history" was to get greater balance/accuracy of historical events.

"In historiography, the term historical revisionism identifies the re-interpretation of the historical record. It usually means challenging the orthodox views held by professional scholars about a historical event, or introducing new evidence, or of restating the motivations and decisions of the participant people."

"History is Written By the Winners".....George Orwell

Dan Brown.....“History is always written by the winners. When two cultures clash, the loser is obliterated, and the winner writes the history books-books which glorify their own cause and disparage the conquered foe. As Napoleon once said, 'What is history, but a fable agreed upon?”