Jeremy Hunt

LoveCurryPies · Post by **LoveCurryPies** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:08 pm

Ever seen a more useless politician?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:10 pm

These is going to create a massive list..
At least a 5 pager.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:13 pm

Another Tim Sherwood.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:17 pm

Also he has very strange eyes, needs to see an optician in my humble.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:17 pm

i suspect he's carrying out his orders quite well.

Somethingfishy · Post by **Somethingfishy** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:49 pm

A bit of new cockney rhyming slang. The funny thing is.... it applies to himself.

minnieclaret · Post by **minnieclaret** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:39 pm

Post 5. Tory privateers running the NHS down whilst talking it up. You know an American health system is coming.

ClaretTim · Post by **ClaretTim** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:32 am

Something needs to change with the NHS though, as 13hour waits and beds in corridors can't continue. That could be more funding through increased taxation (controversial); a UK version of Obama Care (controversial); pay for using A&E (controversial) and I'm sure there are many more genuine ideas that others could suggest. Aneurin Bevan's concept of an NHS with free delivery at source was a wonderful idea and has been brilliant for nigh on 70 years, but times change and the NHS needs to adapt for it to be here in some form or other for the next 70 years. On QT on Thursday evening, Ann Widdecombe said that it is time for a grown-up, non-political, mature debate on the NHS and not to use it as a political football by successive governments. Whether that will happen remains to be seen.

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:47 am

minnieclaret wrote:Post 5. Tory privateers running the NHS down whilst talking it up. You know an American health system is coming.

Isn't it still the case, that up to press Labour have privatised more in percentage terms of the NHS than those nasty Tories though?

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:01 am

Somethingfishy wrote:A bit of new cockney rhyming slang. The funny thing is.... it applies to himself.

Jim Naughtie called it years ago & passed it off as a slip off the tongue.

No Ney Never · Post by **No Ney Never** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:09 am

It's no surprise that there are 13 hour waits and beds in corridors when they continually shut down A&E's and concentrate the service in fewer hospitals.

Heathclaret · Post by **Heathclaret** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:39 am

The French model is worth looking at. I'm sure it has its flaws, but at its core is the training of medical personnel who are then sent to where they are needed in the country. They earn good money, but nothing like here. If you pass your BAC Scientifique and wish to work in the medical profession you apply for your preferred position to train for, i.e doctor or dentist etc, the better your results, the more likely you will get the position you want, if not you are persuaded onto another path. If there are too many doctors and not enough dentists, the priority is given to training dentists. This is a simplification, but when I lived in France, I never had a problem seeing either, also, when we first arrived after a few months my wife gave birth, we weren't in the system and hadn't bothered getting the old E 1 11, health form? So we received a bill, 12 years ago, for €1500. As we hadn't paid into the system at this stage, we were happy to pay. If you calculate the amount of people giving birth in this country who haven't and may never contribute, the cost of giving birth is very high, and including after care, it is huge. Including the midwife visits, compulsory, the total cost was € €2300.

I realise that this thread is about Hunt, and yes he is one.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:54 am

There are several major reasons why the NHS is in the state its currently in:

1. It's being underfunded by central government. As a percentage of GDP, we spend less on health care than most of our European neighbours. The extra billions in spending the government talks about is nowhere near enough to keep up with health inflation.

2. Cuts to local authorities budgets have decimated social care right across the board. Meaning more social problems, less people to help them locally, and more people presenting themselves at the nearest A&E.

3. Doctor and nurse shortages. Constant attacks by a health minister who isn't interested in the NHS as a public service has destroyed the morale of many good health professionals. People are leaving the NHS and they are struggling to attract new people as a result. Cutting the student nurses bursary hasn't helped.

There are other factors at play, of course, but I feel these are the most critical issues which are seriously harming the NHS right now.

None of this should be a surprise to anybody. When it comes to the Conservative party, you know what you get when it comes to the NHS. Jeremy Hunt himself co-authored a policy pamphlet in 2005 saying that the NHS should be replaced with an insurance based system. He wrote that when the NHS was in a relatively healthy state. He is ideologically opposed to the NHS as a public service, and he's not alone in that party.

I think the NHS is doomed under this government, and the more horror stories the public see and hear of, the more likely they are to go along with the privatisation of it.

You can bet your life that this 'Trade Deal' with the USA that the government is so desperate for, will involve opening up the NHS to American healthcare insurance companies.

claretblue · Post by **claretblue** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:08 am

'...needs to see an optician in my humble...'

but can't get an appointment!

fatboy47 · Post by **fatboy47** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:08 am

""Something needs to change with the NHS though""

Well, yes.

Adequate funding would be a nice starting point.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:28 am

It's not a case of blaming the Tories or blaming Labour. The problem is that our expectations of what we want from the NHS costs more than we pay into it and that it has been treated as a holy cow with everyone too scared to make any radical change for fear of it being an election loser.

The NHS was designed rather a long time ago and has been run as a charity with now nice job titles such as 'patient experience managers'. It should be run along the lines of a business to make it more efficient and cost effective. The 'business plan' that it has been run on has not really changed or adapted over the years. It was not designed for today's ageing population (life expectation after retirement was about 5 years); they didn't anticipate keeping the elderly in hospital for weeks until a care home can be found; the thought of spending millions on interpreters hadn't crossed their minds nor did people flying in from all over the world to have acute care or give birth then leave without paying the bill; fathers allowed to stay overnight on the maternity ward and the hospital paying for the funerals for babies that don't go full term (sounds harsh...but why). Nor was it designed for sex change operations for 60 year old men or people pitching up at A&E because they feel lousy or have had a cough and a cold for the last 2 weeks.

I agree with Anne Widdicombe and leave politics out of it. Have a royal commission or whatever. 2 questions....

What do we want from the NHS ?
How much are we prepared to pay in taxes etc ?

ClaretTim · Post by **ClaretTim** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:43 am

Re post #15, where does the funding come from? It can realistically be 1 of 3 sources....increased taxation, cuts elsewhere, or private investment.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:46 am

I think Hatfield has summed it up nicely.

DavidEyresLeftFoot · Post by **DavidEyresLeftFoot** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:57 am

Heathclaret wrote:The French model is worth looking at. I'm sure it has its flaws, but at its core is the training of medical personnel who are then sent to where they are needed in the country. They earn good money, but nothing like here. If you pass your BAC Scientifique and wish to work in the medical profession you apply for your preferred position to train for, i.e doctor or dentist etc, the better your results, the more likely you will get the position you want, if not you are persuaded onto another path. If there are too many doctors and not enough dentists, the priority is given to training dentists. This is a simplification, but when I lived in France, I never had a problem seeing either, also, when we first arrived after a few months my wife gave birth, we weren't in the system and hadn't bothered getting the old E 1 11, health form? So we received a bill, 12 years ago, for €1500. As we hadn't paid into the system at this stage, we were happy to pay. If you calculate the amount of people giving birth in this country who haven't and may never contribute, the cost of giving birth is very high, and including after care, it is huge. Including the midwife visits, compulsory, the total cost was € €2300.

With regards to training I'm not quite sure what you're getting at? The problem isn't training doctors it's retaining them in the system. Except the fact that we don't train enough. We've got the lowest number of doctors than any other comparable european nation. It's a simple fact of any job...if your terms and working conditions are terrible then people leave.

You've highlighted the cost of having a baby. People need to realise how expensive medical care is. Your example above means that you would have spent your contribution for the year. Now imagine getting cancer. The NHS is a fantastic system that provides equitable evidence-based care no matter how much you earn. Why should good health be the preserve of rich people. We pay far less (again) than any other comparable european nation. So for all the people saying it's unaffordable etc. it's absolute rubbish. Funding has to increase. How you make that happen is a different debate. But if you suddenly have to start paying insurance premiums, do you really think they'll massively reduce your tax to offset it? At the end of the day it'll still be coming out of your pocket.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:10 am

The biggest change that needs to happen is that many more people need timely joined up care provided in the community and not in acute settings - by avoiding hospital admissions in the first place and/or having the services in place to enable discharge as soon as a patient is medically fit. The problem is making that type of shift when primary care and community services such as social care are already under such significant pressure. The answer can't just be about more permanent funding.

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:21 am

First of all the answer to the ops question 'is there a more useless politician'.....answer yes Jeremy Corbin.

Secondly waiting lists in hospital are not a new phenomenon.In September 2002 I had a foot problem and attended a treatment room.The nurse there decided I should probably go to A & E and rang them,to be told there was over 6 hours waiting list.This was under Labour.

Thirdly I agree that to many A & E departments have been closed down by both governments.Burnley's was closed by Labour government.

Let's not pretend that everything was wonderful under labour.Both governments are as bad.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:15 pm

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting waiting lists are something new are they??

lucs86 · Post by **lucs86** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:30 pm

Jimscho wrote:First of all the answer to the ops question 'is there a more useless politician'.....answer yes Jeremy Corbin.

Secondly waiting lists in hospital are not a new phenomenon.In September 2002 I had a foot problem and attended a treatment room.The nurse there decided I should probably go to A & E and rang them,to be told there was over 6 hours waiting list.This was under Labour.

Thirdly I agree that to many A & E departments have been closed down by both governments.Burnley's was closed by Labour government.

Let's not pretend that everything was wonderful under labour.Both governments are as bad.

Both governments aren't as bad when it comes to the NHS though, Labour improved NHS performace significantly and maintained it. Performance has dropped and waiting times increased almost as soon s the coalition (Tories) came in. Tories are ideologically opposed to the NHS.

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:32 pm

He's just sold his business for £15 million , so he can always fall back on that when his political " career" ends.

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:36 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:I'm not sure anyone is suggesting waiting lists are something new are they??

Many seem to think it' only happens under the Tories.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:11 pm

Jeremy is the new Isaac.

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:28 pm

NHS is a Never Ending Black Hole and there is nobody in either Labour/Tory or any other Party in the world who could fix it without putting the UK in a serious financial situation or what people would really scream and shout about cutting services and Staff, unfortunately, I doubt anyone has the answer, because if they had it surely would have already been put into play.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:58 pm

Anyone who doesn't realise the NHS hasn't already been privatised via the back door is frankly a little ignorant of the situation. As a frequent flyer with my life long disease, I have utilised the excellent front line of the NHS many times over the past 15 years. However, once my care has become more specialised, for example a physiotherapist, I have been "sub contracted" out to a private company at the expense of the NHS trust who have responsibility for my care. If I go for a CAT scan, again that's "sub contracted" out to a private firm.

When you do a little research into this, the lack of real funding up front for the NHS means that the primary care trusts can no longer afford scanners; physios; mental health practitioners etc and as such they have to contract out at an massively overpriced cost to private firms. I can only speak for one of these firms that I know of but it is owned by a politician's relative and there must be a conflict of interest in my opinion.

If the NHS was funded correctly we wouldn't need to contract out secondary care and we wouldn't need private firms to run these services. The overall total cost of care is still impacting on the NHS trusts and it is this that needs stopping, but whilst we have politicians with hidden agendas for profit involve we don't have a chance.

Oh, and Jeremy is a "see you next Tuesday"

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:30 pm

CnBtruntru wrote:NHS is a Never Ending Black Hole and there is nobody in either Labour/Tory or any other Party in the world who could fix it without putting the UK in a serious financial situation or what people would really scream and shout about cutting services and Staff, unfortunately, I doubt anyone has the answer, because if they had it surely would have already been put into play.

Absolute rubbish, plenty of money available it's being run down as it always is by the Tories , I bet you read the Daily Mail

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:44 pm

It would be nice to take the politics out of it Joey. Politics never really fixed many problems.

However, if you look at the problems highlighted in the NHS over the years such as waiting times for operations as well as A&E, Mid Staffs, etc etc then map them to which party was in control, you may be surprised.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:11 am

HatfieldClaret wrote:Politics never really fixed many problems.

Sorry Hatfield, but that's nonsense.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:16 am

HatfieldClaret wrote:It would be nice to take the politics out of it Joey. Politics never really fixed many problems.

However, if you look at the problems highlighted in the NHS over the years such as waiting times for operations as well as A&E, Mid Staffs, etc etc then map them to which party was in control, you may be surprised.

I'm not surprised that every Tory government has under funded the NHS every time they have been in power .

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:46 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:Sorry Hatfield, but that's nonsense.

Concede that was badly worded. The NHS has been a political football; lots of soundbites and short term fixes from Westminster but too many cosmetic changes.

Sir Robert Francis was on Andrew Marr this morning saying that throwing money at it isn't the answer and change is needed. Lord Kerslake (Chairman of Kings hospital) on Peston now saying that money not the only answer.

If throwing money at a problem is the answer then the Greek economy would be a different story.

lovebeingaclaret · Post by **lovebeingaclaret** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:16 am

lucs86 wrote:Both governments aren't as bad when it comes to the NHS though, Labour improved NHS performace significantly and maintained it. Performance has dropped and waiting times increased almost as soon s the coalition (Tories) came in. Tories are ideologically opposed to the NHS.

Lets get Labour back in and have more PFI !!!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/tele ... deals.html

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:57 am

joey13 wrote:I'm not surprised that every Tory government has under funded the NHS every time they have been in power .

Hello Tory hater.

The real problem isn't how much Labour throw at it or how much you perceive the Tories chop from the budgets.
Its problem is its badly run, over pays for things and is bloated in the wrong areas.
You could give it billions extra but it wouldn't be used in the right areas and you can be certain that pensions for the top bosses would increase....

The population is ageing but retiring at what a point when people can live another 30-40 years without putting as much into the system as they were when they were working.
I read a story the other day about a 98 yr old bloke receiving pioneering heart surgery.
I'm going to sound pretty brutal but was that a sensible use of NHS resources?
Probably not really if we look at his age.

Also, people are too quick to go visit their doctor or the hospital for stupid things they can easily deal with my visiting a pharmacy or using common sense.
If you're visiting a doctor or hospital because you've got a simple cold then you should be charged for your stupidity quite simply.

The simple answer is blame the tories every single time, but its getting to the point where a cross party solution is needed and the NHS shouldn't be allowed to be used for point scoring by politicians.
They need to draw up a plan together and a budget then get on with sorting it out.
Ban them all from using it in their manifests etc.

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:48 pm

joey13 wrote:Absolute rubbish, plenty of money available it's being run down as it always is by the Tories , I bet you read the Daily Mail

I don't read papers, but if you have the answer you need to get in touch with the NHS, I am sure they will listen to you. As someone has already said it is badly run, if you pay a company £1000+ a day for a stand in Dr and think there is nothing wrong with that then there are serious issues with Management. Management are not bothered as they still get there £100,000+ a years wages.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:11 pm

The problem is the Tories don't use it so they really have little interest in it, bit like the education system. Whilst the governing elite have no stake in the systems don't expect too much in the way of commitment.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:24 pm

You're really stupid

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:37 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Hello Tory hater.

The real problem isn't how much Labour throw at it or how much you perceive the Tories chop from the budgets.
Its problem is its badly run, over pays for things and is bloated in the wrong areas.
You could give it billions extra but it wouldn't be used in the right areas and you can be certain that pensions for the top bosses would increase....

The population is ageing but retiring at what a point when people can live another 30-40 years without putting as much into the system as they were when they were working.
I read a story the other day about a 98 yr old bloke receiving pioneering heart surgery.
I'm going to sound pretty brutal but was that a sensible use of NHS resources?
Probably not really if we look at his age.

Also, people are too quick to go visit their doctor or the hospital for stupid things they can easily deal with my visiting a pharmacy or using common sense.
If you're visiting a doctor or hospital because you've got a simple cold then you should be charged for your stupidity quite simply.

The simple answer is blame the tories every single time, but its getting to the point where a cross party solution is needed and the NHS shouldn't be allowed to be used for point scoring by politicians.
They need to draw up a plan together and a budget then get on with sorting it out.
Ban them all from using it in their manifests etc.

Another one who has been brainwashed by the media , try thinking for yourself for a change .

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:15 pm

joey13 wrote:Another one who has been brainwashed by the media , try thinking for yourself for a change .

I look at it from a business point of view.
The business is losing money despite more having been poured in by Labour etc.

It needs to have a proper root and branch reform to make it more viable to run and maintain.
Right now its sinking to its arse and all the political parties refuse to join up and deal with it.
Then there's people like you who point the blame solely at the party you hate the most, in this instance the Tories, but you're so blinded by that hatred you can't see past it.

Would I pay insurance to use it?
Why not, I pay car and home insurance yet I've very rarely used either and it would be the same with medical care.
I can count on one hand how many times I've visited my local GP for my own health issues since I joined it 4 years ago....
Same with A&E.

Do I get hacked off seeing people take advantage of something because they're to stupid, lazy, arrogant to take proper care of themselves?
Definitely so.

Would they do it if they got charged for using something when they didn't need too?
I suspect they wouldn't.

Other things need to change to help the nhs though.
Insurance companies need to stop paying out for whiplash, because it cant be proven or disproven that someone has it so just stop paying out for it....
The amount of time and money wasted dealing with this thing by the NHS is criminal.

People who get smashed to the point they need an ambulance or medical care...hand them the bill afterwards and see how funny they find it then when they're expected to pay for their care.

People whining about privatisation are a little behind the real world.
I had a knee operation in 2003/4 and it was done by the doctor who inspected me originally when I was in an NHS hospital.
Only thing was he performed the op at a private hospital where he worked on the side.
I'll need to check my dates, but weren't Labour in charge then and bad been for a while.
Or aren't we allowed to mention those sorts of facts?

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:17 pm

Labour made use of private facilities to reduce waiting times.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:19 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Labour made use of private facilities to reduce waiting times.

Yet when the tories carry it on, or try to reduce the expenditure, people are up in arms.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:20 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Yet when the tories carry it on, or try to reduce the expenditure, people are up in arms.

Surely you are not serious with that comment, have a think about it .

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:26 pm

joey13 wrote:Surely you are not serious with that comment, have a think about it .

Why not?
People are whining that the Tories are trying to privatise the NHS, but when Labour shipped out things to private hospitals nothing was said.

The NHS is losing money at a ridiculous rate so cutting expenditure on things like farming out work to private hospitals is one way to save money.

Rock and a hard place for the Tories.

Something you're clearly not interested in considering because you hate the Tories above anything else and its blinding you.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:36 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Why not?
People are whining that the Tories are trying to privatise the NHS, but when Labour shipped out things to private hospitals nothing was said.

The NHS is losing money at a ridiculous rate so cutting expenditure on things like farming out work to private hospitals is one way to save money.

Rock and a hard place for the Tories.

Something you're clearly not interested in considering because you hate the Tories above anything else and its blinding you.

The NHS is losing money , it was not created to make money it's a service we all pay for ,Tories have just spent 5 billion on nuclear submarines how much money are they making .

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:38 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Why not?
People are whining that the Tories are trying to privatise the NHS, but when Labour shipped out things to private hospitals nothing was said.

The NHS is losing money at a ridiculous rate so cutting expenditure on things like farming out work to private hospitals is one way to save money.

Rock and a hard place for the Tories.

Something you're clearly not interested in considering because you hate the Tories above anything else and its blinding you.

Honestly, don't waste your fingers.

Anti-Tory rhetoric is ingrained into these people and no sensible argument will ever be had with them.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:41 pm

starting_11 wrote:Honestly, don't waste your fingers.

Anti-Tory rhetoric is ingrained into these people and no sensible argument will ever be had with them.

Ha ha brilliant
Anti-Labour rhetoric is ingrained into these people and no sensible argument will ever be had with them.[/quote]

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:41 pm

joey13 wrote:The NHS is losing money , it was not created to make money it's a service we all pay for ,Tories have just spent 5 billion on nuclear submarines how much money are they making .

Its given a budget and keeps going over it, ergo my losing money comment.
Its shoddily run, rubbish chief execs are paid stupid money, paid off to leave and then take up another job in a different trust again on stupid money....
Nowt like rewarding failure is there?
Trusts that are so badly run that people are literally dying needlessly and not one chief exec has been jailed for neglect...

How much have we spent thanks to Blair's dodgy war and the aftermath since?

I don't agree with the money spent on nuclear weapons, so good luck with waving that at me.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:42 pm

It's run by the government, the name of the thread is a give away .

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:45 pm

joey13 wrote:Ha ha brilliant
Anti-Labour rhetoric is ingrained into these people and no sensible argument will ever be had with them.

[/quote]

I've stated all parties need to stop using the NHS for political football /point scoring.
It should be left out of politics and looked after by a cross party commission.

What do you think about that suggestion?