A Second Sweaty Referendum

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:05 pm

Sturgeon strikes. Separation this time?

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:07 pm

Hope so, don't think so, but hope so.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:22 pm

Mrs SturgeonFace promised the last referendum would be a once in a generation one - she now wants to publicly break her promise on the basis of the result of a completely unconnected referendum

Mrs May isn't going to give her a second chance

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:28 pm

Sturgeon needs to keep her head under the water ..

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:30 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote:Hope so, don't think so, but hope so.

Hi Hatfield,
Don't want to open up yet another Brexit debate, but don't you think that an independent Scotland in the EU with England outside it, is just another potential complication and expense for us as we negotiate our way out of the EU? There would be an awful lot of issues to resolve. e.g. It's a hell of a long border to police if we are closing our borders, and coming out of the customs union.
Whilst we were still in the EU, I would have agreed with you, but now it could be bad for both countries I reckon.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:34 pm

Some MEP muppet on the news channel today spouting that the last one was dependent on EU membership. As in "do you want to stay in the United Kingdom, as long as the uk remains in the EU".

It clearly wasn't.

Shouldn't be another. They said no. What is it with people just refusing to accept the results of a democratic process these days?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:37 pm

SalisburyClaret wrote:Mrs SturgeonFace promised the last referendum would be a once in a generation one - she now wants to publicly break her promise on the basis of the result of a completely unconnected referendum

Mrs May isn't going to give her a second chance

I don't think the referendum is a good idea, but it's not correct to say that the 2 referenda are unconnected. It was made absolutely clear in the first Indy referendum that a vote to remain in the Union was the only way to GUARANTEE continued membership of the EU, but within just 3 years the UK govt is set to trigger Article 50. I would say that this gives Sturgeon a fair degree of justification for her stance, given that one of the key pledges from the UK govt has been broken.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:38 pm

I feel so sorry for the Scots having her and her cronies in charge (or at least, pretending that they are).

On a blind lunge for power, they conveniently ignore that the % who would hypothetically vote to be independant (about 48% seems to be the latest polling) is very different from the % who agree that there should be a 2nd referendum. I personally know of several "yes" people who are offended with the SNPs power grab and would vote "no" in 2018 on principle, they view it as too big a risk at a time of uncertainty anyway.

That's why the UK isn't in any danger.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:55 pm

She will keep holding them until she gets the result she wants.

They also seem to think they'll get fast tracked for EU membership.

The Treasury needs to start looking at the national debt, making sure it's split fairly.
Same with everything else, so we're ready for when Sturgeon gets the result she wants.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:01 pm

SalisburyClaret wrote:Mrs SturgeonFace promised the last referendum would be a once in a generation one - she now wants to publicly break her promise on the basis of the result of a completely unconnected referendum

Mrs May isn't going to give her a second chance

Tories have already worked out that she has no right to call for a referendum until we know how the Brexit deal works out. If it doesn't 'for' Scotland, then people need to know what the EU will offer them to return to the EU as an independent country.
It's going to be years, if at all before there is any chance of another referendum.
Some people just cannot accept defeat, yesterdays threads on the Liverpool game being a massive example.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:06 pm

The EU have already said the jocks will have to reapply fro membership, same goes for NATO.

bob-the-scutter · Post by **bob-the-scutter** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:21 pm

: sturgeon.jpg (9.01 KiB) Viewed 6636 times

What a complete and utter deluded egomaniac this spiteful dwarf creature is!
Hopefully the Scots will realise this and sink her without trace. Let her blow Junker and his cronies and see what she gets.
She`s betrayed Scotland with her blinkered obsession.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:24 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Hi Hatfield,
Don't want to open up yet another Brexit debate, but don't you think that an independent Scotland in the EU with England outside it, is just another potential complication and expense for us as we negotiate our way out of the EU? There would be an awful lot of issues to resolve. e.g. It's a hell of a long border to police if we are closing our borders, and coming out of the customs union.
Whilst we were still in the EU, I would have agreed with you, but now it could be bad for both countries I reckon.

ND

The reason I hope so is that the issue will arise every couple of years until either 50.0000009% vote out of the UK or a thumping majority vote to stay in. The Union has only been going for a relatively short tim in UK history, ironically enough starting with a Scottish king of the UK and in more recent years with Scots being disproportionately represented in parliament and also in government.

If they want out then they should be able to leave. Only this time negotiations should start once they have voted to leave and there should be a second referendum on whether they want to leave on those terms.

I don't think they will vote to leave because they can't afford to financially. I may be wrong, I thought the referendum result was going to be a close win for Remain. To deny them a referendum if they want it would be wrong. How do you show whether a majority want a referendum without actually having one though. If they vote out or in I will have to respect their decision; and so should the scottish politicians whichever way it goes.

Interesting times ahead.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:27 pm

Perhaps if a second one is held, it can be on the condition that should she lose, Sturgeon will step down and crawl back under her rock.

Although advertise that and she's s resigned to defeat from the outset.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:30 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote: The Union has only been going for a relatively short tim in UK history, ironically enough starting with a Scottish king of the UK and in more recent years with Scots being disproportionately represented in parliament and also in government.

It's been a unified kingdom since 1603 and a unified country since 1707. We're looking at 300-400 years of unity there. That's a long time in my book.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:33 pm

Why would Scotland get back in the EU? They can't afford to pay the £56m per day the UK currently does, Scotland costs England 4k per person in subsidies as it is so how can they really afford to go alone? The EU only has 4 or 5 countries that pay in and 25 that take out so why would they accept another country that needs money rather than pays in? Especially when they have to cover the £56m per day black hole left by Britain leaving.

Frenchclaret · Post by **Frenchclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:44 pm

It should be a hard Scoxit - we tell them that if they want to go we will give them nothing.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:47 pm

If they did get back in the EU, would they have to take the Euro
as a condition of membership? Remember one of the EU bigwigs on
telly once saying so.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:58 pm

The question asked was “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

not

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union (except in Scotland where you'll get another chance to vote in another referendum if you don't fancy it much or if it doesn't suit the SNP)?"

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:11 pm

What is it with referendums?

I must be misunderstanding how they work.

We have had two big ones recently both basically asking the question 'in or out'?

There was a substantial lead-in time to each vote.

The discussions, the TV and ratio chat, the printed column inches were MASSIVE.
- in the end we were all heartily fed up of the incessant chatter and 'noise' about the two votes, and couldn't wait to get them done and counted.

All those who were designated 'allowed to vote', then had the chance to go and mark their card.

Many many millions did..turnouts were very high..the public had their say..we were asked for our opinions.

Two clear results were delivered..great...proper democracy.

Then the bit that is causing me confusion, when I thought I had understood what was going on..?...I had clearly got it wrong.

Both losing sides [especially re the EU]then indulged in the sort of prolonged whining, whinging, moaning, and grieving than I had ever seen in my earlier life.

I felt a bit sorry for them. they must not have understood the rules that everyone was playing by...some of them were very upset.

Anyway..apparently they both want another go at it...presumably hoping that we get different results next time, results they can accept and live with..

- maybe a third one, if the second one doesn't work..?..that has been mentioned.

I have just seen two blokes on TV..one was called Nick Clegg and the other was an old bloke called Heseltine [my mate in the pub last night described Clegg as a f****** pryck]...I wouldn't know...anyway the manner in which they were whining on. suggests to me that they were in the 'moaning' camp, and they hadn't properly understood the rules either.

I hope it sorts itself out, and we move on, because it's taking up a lot of time and effort at the moment.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:15 pm

Sidney1st wrote:She will keep holding them until she gets the result she wants.

They also seem to think they'll get fast tracked for EU membership.

The Treasury needs to start looking at the national debt, making sure it's split fairly.
Same with everything else, so we're ready for when Sturgeon gets the result she wants.

She's clearly learnt at the feet of her EU chums, who, if they lose a Referendum, as happened in France & Ireland, simply adjust some window dressing and hold them again & again, until they get the right result...

The Spanish are 95% certain to veto any EU application, as Scotland's admission would set a precedent for the Catalonia region who have Independence ambitions of their own. The Nats never really answered the currency question last time either. Economic figures last week showed that the Scottish government, has a budget deficit of 9.1%, worse than Greece.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37167975" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All this is before the Finance and Insurance Companies, based around Edinburgh, consider whether they wish to be centred away from their major market, England. The same goes for Sky ( Glasgow ) & the 8,000 jobs around the Naval base at Faslane and Coulport.

I don't think another Referendum would produce a different result ...

Zugunruhe · Post by **Zugunruhe** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:17 pm

bobinho wrote:Some MEP muppet on the news channel today spouting that the last one was dependent on EU membership. As in "do you want to stay in the United Kingdom, as long as the uk remains in the EU".

The 'No' campaign banged on and on about how an independent Scotland would be outside the EU and how this would be disastrous for their economy. Funny how things change in such a short space of time.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:28 pm

I personally think that parliament should grant them their wish and give them a vote.

They have a mandate, and it's not for us to block the will of Scottish parliament.

With that said, I believe they would be utterly mad to leave in the current circumstances on the vain hope they will get an automatic EU membership, on the same terms and with the same perks they had before. There is no chance; the EU is soon to lose it's 2nd biggest net contributor, the last thing they will want it so replace that with a member state who aims to take out, not put in to the budget. They know they need to make up that shortfall from somewhere, and will be very careful about new members who they don't think will be able to contribute in the short-medium term.

In 2014, they had a somewhat decent shout, even if there were many questions economically. Now, however, though they may have more political strength for it, they have much much less practically and economically.

RalphCoatesComb · Post by **RalphCoatesComb** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:33 pm

Let them have their vote, let them go, and let's see how well they swim without UK money AND EU money.

Hey Donald, any building materials left after building your Mexican wall??

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:52 pm

Rowls wrote:It's been a unified kingdom since 1603 and a unified country since 1707. We're looking at 300-400 years of unity there. That's a long time in my book.

In terms of modern history maybe. the clue is in the 1603 years AD before a unified kingdom that it wasn't.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:58 pm

I hope they get a referendum and vote out or we will be having one every time they get a new leader. If it helps I'll start; LEAVE YER BARSTARDS.

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:59 pm

That's a good point Ralph Coates Comb about the wall.

It's only 80 odd miles, the Romans have given us
some good foundations to build on. The Scots
are going to pay for it to be built too.
That'll serve 'em right for vandalising Wembley.

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:02 pm

Hatfield.
That's quite a proportion of the
time since England became England.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:03 pm

We don't like Europe, the Scots understandably don't like us. The Union needs breaking up, probably only Wales and England left in ten years time.
Brexit just not thought through, will ignite the Irish issue bring untold bureaucracy and uncertainty, waste huge amounts of money and make the world a more dangerous place, you couldn't make it up if you tried.

Deardeary · Post by **Deardeary** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:10 pm

No BBC, no Sterling, no Celtic and Rangers in the Prem ever, we should be declaring terms now, good riddance, get the Jocks to rebuild the Wall Trump stylee

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:17 pm

The only reason the Scottish powers that be signed the Act of Union was because they were bankrupt after their disastrous attempt to start a trading empire in the Darien Penninsula (Panama region). The English government bailed them out and paid back all their losses, thereby forcing them to sign up to the Union.
They don't like us, never have, and I would be happy to see them take the braveheart route to independence.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:19 pm

bob-the-scutter wrote:She`s betrayed Scotland with her blinkered obsession.

You could just as easily say the same about UKIP and the Eurosceptic Tories who have betrayed the United Kingdom with their blinkered obsession.

We're getting ourselves into such a huge mess on so many fronts that it merely reinforces my view that Brexit is, and always was, a monumentally stupid idea.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:20 pm

Its sad just how many people who are desperate to leave the EU are also desperate for Scotland to leave the UK as well.

F**k knows what goes on in a world where 400 years of unity gets chucked away with gags about sweaties and pictures of chewbacca.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:24 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:That's a good point Ralph Coates Comb about the wall.

It's only 80 odd miles, the Romans have given us
some good foundations to build on. The Scots
are going to pay for it to be built too.
That'll serve 'em right for vandalising Wembley.

That would be a decent proposition based on the nasty ignorance on here. It would also reclaim some of the north, who would probably be grateful.

Smart move by Nicola, to show how May doesn't give a toss. Pity Labour has lost its balls. Someone has to put May back in her box.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:25 pm

On the other hand, it reinforces my view that Brexit is, and always was, a monumentally good idea. Get rid of the European gravy train and the Scottish handbrake and we can then make our own way in the world. If they go, the Scots are going to be pretty much f*cked as the EU have already said they don't want any more Greece- like basket cases joining. I'll be getting the popcorn out if they go.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:25 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:That's a good point Ralph Coates Comb about the wall.

It's only 80 odd miles, the Romans have given us
some good foundations to build on. The Scots
are going to pay for it to be built too.
That'll serve 'em right for vandalising Wembley.

That would be a decent proposition based on the nasty ignorance on here. It would also reclaim some of the north, who would probably be grateful.

Smart move by Nicola, to show how May doesn't give a toss. Pity Labour has lost its balls. Someone has to put May back in her box.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:29 pm

EU costs us too much money, so we leave

Scotland costs us too much money, so they can leave

How much money is a Conservative party in LONDON going to put into areas which they consider a drain on the taxpayer?

Not a lot, because the argument you use will be used against the areas that you and I live in.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:36 pm

BennyD wrote:On the other hand, it reinforces my view that Brexit is, and always was, a monumentally good idea. Get rid of the European gravy train and the Scottish handbrake and we can then make our own way in the world. If they go, the Scots are going to be pretty much f*cked as the EU have already said they don't want any more Greece- like basket cases joining. I'll be getting the popcorn out if they go.

So if the EU doesn't let them join, why will they be f*cked? If they don't join the 'European gravy train' they'll be free to 'make their own way in the world', which is a good thing, right?

Spaceman · Post by **Spaceman** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:36 pm

Racist chunts on here . my last day as a Scottish claret .

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:38 pm

I don't understand why most of the right-wing nut jobs on here are shitting themselves. Your beloved Brexit vote was a game-changer for our London-based government who ****** up big time and have no idea what they are doing. Pure incompetence. I don't blame the Scots for wanting a second look at this.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:40 pm

ablueclaret wrote:We don't like Europe, the Scots understandably don't like us. The Union needs breaking up, probably only Wales and England left in ten years time.
Brexit just not thought through, will ignite the Irish issue bring untold bureaucracy and uncertainty, waste huge amounts of money and make the world a more dangerous place, you couldn't make it up if you tried.

The world will be more dangerous if we get rid of the Scots and/or Irish?

If we let Ireland unify, then the stupid morons in the IRA will have to take up a different past time to planning attacks on the English.

If we let Scotland go, then we haven't got to listen to them whinging anymore in the media or Parliament and they can bugger off back north of the border.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:41 pm

hello Lancaster..

I generally kept out of all the Brexit stuff on here ( because I could see that it was going to be never-ending..) - however I looked at the issues carefully and decided that I wanted out.
- so be it.

With regard to Scotland...for many many years we have generally been ambivalent about them.

They really really really do not like us...how many examples would you like me to show you.
I have Scottish friends who would readily admit it.
They are also an economic drain on the U.K. these days, and for the foreseeable future. I don't mind that, we are part of a union.. we help each other out.

However, if they wish to break from us, then let them get on with it..I couldn't care less..as I said the majority of them really do not like the English.

**if they eventually go the whole way and break away from us because of a referendum result, and then the EU won't let them join...they will be economically fu**** to the Nth degree for eons to come.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:43 pm

It's good to see that the narrow-minded ignorance and casual bigotry which led us to Brexit is still alive and strong on this thread. You're all consistent, if nothing else.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:46 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:**if they eventually go the whole way and break away from us because of a referendum result, and then the EU won't let them join...they will be economically fu**** to the Nth degree for eons to come.

Why?

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:51 pm

I think the rest of the UK should have a ref asking if we want the Jocks to be part of the UK

On a serious side it would be bad for our democracy as we would in all probability have the Tories in power for generations.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:52 pm

Spaceman..re your comment above

- the dislike, distrust, scepticism between the two countries overwhelmingly flows one way.

You know it.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:55 pm

44..JM

- because their economy, standing on their own two feet isn't up to it, now or going forward.

That is why they will be DESPERATE to get under the EU umbrella.

taio · Post by **taio** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:57 pm

The economic case for Scottish independence without EU membership would surely be extremely weak.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:01 pm

IanMcL wrote:That would be a decent proposition based on the nasty ignorance on here. It would also reclaim some of the north, who would probably be grateful.

Smart move by Nicola, to show how May doesn't give a toss. Pity Labour has lost its balls. Someone has to put May back in her box.

I agree that politically, it brings some pressure and scrutiny to bear on Mrs May...someone has to carry out the role of opposition !! Corbyn's happier carrying placards and addressing meetings of the like minded !
I voted " Leave " on the basis of Sovereignty, and the returning of power to Parliament and our Judiciary, but I fully accept, that if these issues are not a priority for people, there is a very cogent case for remaining in the EU. I don't think either side in the EU Referendum covered themselves in glory, quite frankly ..

I always enjoy your comments Ian.. They're inevitably well written, thoughtful, and you've introduced " Madge " to a new audience ! The post that left it's mark on me, however, is the one you never wanted to write, and that none of us wanted to read. It is the only post I've ever read that's left me in tears !! Keep well, my friend ..

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:08 pm

43 JM..

There it is again.. yet again.. it never stops..

What you are saying, as so many others before you have said..is that all those who voted 'the wrong way' (52%) are..

thick,stupid,uneducated.
and a racist.

Have you not worked out, even yet, that your sort of unblinking arrogance is part of the reason for the referendum result that you so didn't want.

I am very well educated, and not a racist either.