Martin McGuinness

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:22 am

Guich wrote:Would you put fighting apartheid on a parallel with sectarian fighting in Ireland nil_d?

To those involved it probably was...............

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:22 am

That's because he's a prick as well.

lakesclaret · Post by **lakesclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:22 am

God almighty to hear the BBC reporting this in hushed tones of reverence you'd think, Lenny Henry or Sue Perkins had died...

Murger · Post by **Murger** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:23 am

Alistair Campbell is a ****.

johnalexander · Post by **johnalexander** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:37 am

If Ireland was so troublesome, as many on here point out. Why did the ENGLISH decide to keep Ireland as part of their empire for so long? Why not let a troubled and poor country go its own way in 1922 and free it? Could there just possibly be an ulterior motive?
I suggest Manpower, raw resources to build a navy , and English land owners who could exploit cheap grazing, breeding and growing land are the real reasons.
The Irish fought to free themselves of as they saw it an oppressive yoke. McGuiness, then just another in a line of terrorists fighting to free his land from an oppressor.

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:47 am

so, he had an epiphany and decided that peace was the way to go? or maybe the IRA heirarchy decided to adopt a new, political, strategy to achieve their overall goal of a united Ireland. not taking sides here, just putting this thought on the table.

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:04 am

This fella seems fairly sure

“I’m just pleased that the world is a sweeter and cleaner place now. He was not only a multi-murderer, he was a coward. He knew that the IRA were defeated because British intelligence had penetrated right the way up to the Army Council and that the end was coming. He then sought to save his own skin and he knew that it was likely he would be charged before long with several murders which he had personally committed and he decided that the only thing to do was to opt for peace. He claimed to be a Roman Catholic. I hope that his beliefs turn out to be true and he’ll be parked in a particularly hot and unpleasant corner of hell for the rest of eternity.”

Norman Tebbit

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:06 am

Guich wrote:Would you put fighting apartheid on a parallel with sectarian fighting in Ireland nil_d?

Not an exact parallel since every "cause" is different, but the parallels are pretty clear. A political or nationalist protest group who feel that they are being victimised and oppressed who embark on a route of civil disobedience and violence, after believing that peaceful means cannot succeed.
It's important to remember that the suppression of rights of the ethnic Irish went back for centuries, and that the seeds of "troubles" in the north were sown, when the country was partitioned in the 1920 / 1 agreement, rather than creating a united Ireland. (It's a very complicated issue of course, and I'm not suggesting that there was an easy solution in 1921 because the interests of the Unionists in the north also needed protecting)

lakesclaret · Post by **lakesclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:22 am

I've little doubt that the IRA top brass wanted peace but more so to save their own skins. In any other theatre of war MM and Adams would be tried as war criminals simple as that . It's not to say there weren't many on both sides that should have been punished for their crimes .

While MM no doubt did change , The lack of atonement for his crimes disgusts many many people myself included.

Bizzarely on 2 occasions I could have slotted him myself but I'd be serving a long sentence in a MP for murder if I had.

To compare him to Mandela is simple preposterous

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:33 am

I worked for two Irish firms when all this was going on, and the difference in NI at the start and when I left was amazing (nothing to do with me I hasten to add!) and he played a very major part in that.

Once you've chatted to a former police inspector who escaped an IRA ambush and was quite happy to talk about how astonishing it was that Paisley and McGuinness could be friends and that kind of thing was essential to the peace process, then it changes your view somewhat.

Nothing excuses terrorism, and I'm sure that no one will ever forgive him for that, but what he did to make the bombings and the shootings stop cannot be underestimated or ignored either.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:34 am

Caballo wrote:This fella seems fairly sure

“I’m just pleased that the world is a sweeter and cleaner place now. He was not only a multi-murderer, he was a coward. He knew that the IRA were defeated because British intelligence had penetrated right the way up to the Army Council and that the end was coming. He then sought to save his own skin and he knew that it was likely he would be charged before long with several murders which he had personally committed and he decided that the only thing to do was to opt for peace. He claimed to be a Roman Catholic. I hope that his beliefs turn out to be true and he’ll be parked in a particularly hot and unpleasant corner of hell for the rest of eternity.”

Norman Tebbit

Aye a particularly right-wing politician not at all influenced by the fact that his missus was crippled in the conflict.............Tebbit was happy to wage the war, he can hardly complain if he, like many others, suffered personally. A bitter, twisted man furious at being made to look foolish. A shame his dignity went in that bombing too.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:37 am

Did Tebbit and his missus have it coming to them Eddie?

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:38 am

Tribesmen wrote:Without Martin there would not have been peace in the North what we have today .

With respect, ********.

If he hadn't got involved in it, someone else would've. And we'd be where we are right now in the peace process. The people wanted it. And someone else would've given it to them.

He was responsible for so much more in the province, and for that he will surely burn in hell for eternity. And that won't be anywhere near long enough.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:39 am

"To compare him to Mandela is simple preposterous"...............I assume you mean "simply" but, pray, enlighten us with a detailed explanation of your view.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:39 am

Norman Tebbit; fastest reader in the Tory Party.
Goes through four storeys in 2.5 seconds.

Too soon?

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:40 am

I think McGuinness had a better chance of bringing the hardest IRA murderers with him in the peace process because they were scared of him...ironically.

lakesclaret · Post by **lakesclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:48 am

Eddie

I doubt Mandela spent that long physically armed,ordering killings,indiscriminate bombings,torture and the like(I refer to Nelson not Winnie)

Though for someone who manages to dismiss anyone not sharing your views as racist idiotic imbeciles (or the like) while even managing to shoehorn Thatcher into your OP tells us all we need to know about the smugness and intolerance of the left .

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:51 am

Guich wrote:I think McGuinness had a better chance of bringing the hardest IRA murderers with him in the peace process because they were scared of him...ironically.

I think this is something that's being ignored.

The hardliners at the time weren't going to listen to the normal politician etc, it had to be one of their own to lay it all out to them.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:57 am

lakesclaret wrote: To compare him to Mandela is simple preposterous

So what are the essential differences then, apart from one was far away in S Africa and didn't kill anyone on mainland UK, whilst the other one was too close to home? I don't think Mandela ever renounced violence or apologised retrospectively for his violent past - by the way.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:27 pm

Blackrod wrote:Alistair Campbell thinks he was 'warm and likeable'

You think thats bad you should go on jeremy corbyns facebook and watch the outpouring of grief by him and his disgusting cult.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:28 pm

lakesclaret wrote:Eddie

I doubt Mandela spent that long physically armed,ordering killings,indiscriminate bombings,torture and the like(I refer to Nelson not Winnie)

Though for someone who manages to dismiss anyone not sharing your views as racist idiotic imbeciles (or the like) while even managing to shoehorn Thatcher into your OP tells us all we need to know about the smugness and intolerance of the left .

Eh?

Er, no, I think you'll find NM was locked up for quite a while but, unlike others, survived to tell the tale.

Whose views have I labelled as racist or idiotic or those of imbeciles (or the like) ?

The er, OP isn't mine and I wouldn't dream of "shoehorning" Thatcher, dead or alive. If you don't understand the point I was making, try reading it again until you do. If in doubt, please ask.

The "smugness and the intolerance of the left" again, wtf ? I've being banging all morning about being tolerant, you berk. Blimey, if you can't read, please don't join in. For what it's worth, I despise politicians to the left and right at the moment.

Other than that, lakes, your post was really quite successful....

lakesclaret · Post by **lakesclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:34 pm

Eddie

Re: Mandela

Noones painting him as a cuddly old uncle,but did he have the blood on his hands than MM and GA had?

And naturally close to home makes the troubles far more relevant than tribal politics in a faraway land.

Ultimately MM ended up with a very honourable and generous surrender package in return for disarmament (which admittedly only he,GA and a few selects could have brokered)

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:37 pm

Ah the Peace Process. Basically it was the vile murderer McGuinness offering to stop bombing and shooting, if him and his band of killers were let off all the crimes and murders committed in the past. A sort of Get out of jail free card. And while we're at it, the same doesn't apply to British Soldiers carrying out the duties as directed by the government, so they can be pursued for previous actions. Deal?

Don't forget, there would have been no need for a 'peace process' if he and his like hadnt been murdering people. I lost a good school friend at the hands of the IRA and will never forgive or forget their actions. McGuinness is a murdering scumbag and deserves treating how he did with others. Bury him in a shallow grave and refuse to reveal where it is . Apologies for sitting on the fence, but i need to respect the profanity filters on this site.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:39 pm

An honourable and generous surrender now, is it ? Labels, labels, labels.
Still, must be right if Tebbit says so..

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:43 pm

Guich wrote:Did Tebbit and his missus have it coming to them Eddie?

Well, he liked to portray himself as a hard-case politician - what better way to stand up for your political principles ? (no pun intended, Norm)

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:44 pm

Over to you, Mayo...

lakesclaret · Post by **lakesclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:46 pm

Eddie

If the best you can engage in is pedantary why bother? I was referring to your "OP" as you well know. You were labelling people that don't " see your point" as idiots or suchlike . You sound like that Turtle guy ,6th form politics and puce like rage at non believers .Perhaps a 9/11 thread might help you relax.Enjoy your afternoon

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:47 pm

Herts Clarets wrote:Ah the Peace Process. Basically it was the vile murderer McGuinness offering to stop bombing and shooting, if him and his band of killers were let off all the crimes and murders committed in the past. A sort of Get out of jail free card. And while we're at it, the same doesn't apply to British Soldiers carrying out the duties as directed by the government, so they can be pursued for previous actions. Deal?

Don't forget, there would have been no need for a 'peace process' if he and his like hadnt been murdering people. I lost a good school friend at the hands of the IRA and will never forgive or forget their actions. McGuinness is a murdering scumbag and deserves treating how he did with others. Bury him in a shallow grave and refuse to reveal where it is . Apologies for sitting on the fence, but i need to respect the profanity filters on this site.

And why were "he and his like" involved. Read the history books, pal, conflicts like these go back centuries. Try and see beyond the death of your pal, as hard as it may be, and try and work out how and why the Good Friday Agreement simply HAD to come about one way or another.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:52 pm

Hi motivation was never peace, it was self preservation. It's difficult to separate the actions and the motive for those actions when it comes to lauding them for the result. But the result we should all be thankful for, especially in the North.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:53 pm

lakesclaret wrote:Eddie

If the best you can engage in is pedantary why bother? I was referring to your "OP" as you well know. You were labelling people that don't " see your point" as idiots or suchlike . You sound like that Turtle guy ,6th form politics and puce like rage at non believers .Perhaps a 9/11 thread might help you relax.Enjoy your afternoon

My OP, I believe, is post 13. Read it. Ooops.
I don't think I've labelled anybody an idiot (or suchlike

) today but please quote me verbatim if I've missed it.
Who is the "Turtle guy" and what has he or 9/11 got to do with all this ?
You're out of your depth here, lakes........................

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:54 pm

willsclarets wrote:Hi motivation was never peace, it was self preservation. It's difficult to separate the actions and the motive for those actions when it comes to lauding them for the result. But the result we should all be thankful for, especially in the North.

Self-preservation for all sides. We should indeed be thankful to all concerned.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:54 pm

Its very hard to look at this dispassionately.

No surprise that Tebbit cannot (I doubt I could if it happened to my wife) and others won't be able to.

The dad of the kid killed in Warrington can, and if he can, then it would be a bit remiss of me not to be able to.

Do I think he should have been punished for what he did? Yes

Do I think he could have been punished (along with everybody else) and there still be a peace process? No

It was a very, very, very tough call for a govt that people now only appear to remember because of Iraq, and because they made that call, there is now peace in Northern Ireland.

Ranting about the fact he is a murderer (he is) doesn't change that, and again, what is more important?

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:56 pm

eddie has a point in that you can't separate the actions of someone like McGuinness with those that preceded it and essentially created him. There was plenty of senseless murdering by British troops in Ireland during the partition and the uprising of nationalists who (and it's hard not to have sympathy) objected to having a line drawn in their country by the British Empire. Our line drawing has a hell of a lot to answer for.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:00 pm

You nailed it, Lancaster.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:01 pm

Aye, and its worth mentioning as well that he at least accepted that his way wasn't the right way, and recognised that sticking dogmatically to that would have resulted in there never being peace.

Compare that to current events (which will have an effect on NI) for example.

johnalexander · Post by **johnalexander** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:06 pm

Why did McGuiness deem it necessary to commit acts of atrocity against civilians? (BTW is Mrs Tebbit really a civilian). If successive British Governments had engaged in serious discussion about Ireland with the IRA long ago most of the worst of the disgusting acts could have been avoided. British soldiers carried out directed actions against the Irish for almost a century eventually forcing either open conflict or succumb to English rule.
Soldiers like I presume Lakesclaret was, could tell a truer tale than most of the conflict.
I worry that with British exit from EU this trouble will start up again.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:08 pm

Interesting points Lancaster. I wonder if the west will eventually have to talk to the leaders of Islamic state to get peace, or at least better than it is now?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:09 pm

I suspect at some point we will 'hand back' N.Ireland, via a referendum.

It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to do, BUT it would have to be on the proviso that the IRA and it's counterparts all stop dicking about with guns & bombs.
They seem to struggle with being peaceful.

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:10 pm

Look lets face it most on here will only ever see this one way .
Hey give this thread a day or two and it will have fallen off the page and people will think no more about it .
It has been a very raw few days in Derry who lost a footballer and now Martin .
What the future lies for the North nobody knows but for Martin McGuinness will be remembered for what he stood for his belief in a united Ireland and his march for peace .

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:19 pm

A lot of the rage against McGuinness and Irish Nationalists is projected through British tinted glasses, and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot expressing it don't have a clue why the IRA were so hostile toward the UK. I've studied Irish Republicanism extensively and as somebody previously alluded to it is the long history of British imperialism that created the IRA and men like Adams and McGuinness. It doesn't make what they did 'good' but the people foaming at the mouth need to understand there are two sides to every coin.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:23 pm

He might have helped in the peace process but he was still a coward who murdered innocent people. I hope it haunted him.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:29 pm

They were planning a party at the pearly gates when he arrived but Bobby Sands had ate all the butties..

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:29 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:You nailed it, Lancaster.

Out of interest Eddie, what age are you or perhaps more to the point what age were you during MM reign of terror ?

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:31 pm

Spot on Lancaster.

Norman Tebbit is probably not the best judge of character and as sad as it is what happened to his wife we are still talking about Norman Tebbit here....Thatcher's Rottweiler.

Really interesting hearing the father from Warrington speak about him and also pointing out that he was not the first terrorist turned statesman - Mandela, the Israeli gov etc

It's equally strange to see McGuiness and Paisley laughing together later in their life in Parliament after what they had been through earlier in their life.

There is absolutely no way you can condone what he did in the first part of his life in my view...but clearly he played a big role in the peace process.

If Adolf Hitler would have survived and set up a charitable foundation for Holocaust victims in his later life do we think there would have been much forgiveness for him ?

It's hard to have any respect for someone who has carried out the atrocities and murders that McGuiness did for many years - even if he did seem to change his stance in later years.

Maybe he got tired of killing and realised that years of carrying out murder was never going to get Sinn Fein the power they wanted but peace might

.....I struggle to believe that either McGuiness or Ian Paisley saw the light after all those years of killing each other. All this was ever about was getting power. The fact that peace was a bi product of this was obviously welcome to everyone but I doubt very much that extremists like Adams, McGuiness and Paisley who felt so strongly about their cause that they would murder hundreds of innocent people really did change their deep held beliefs and hatred for one another.

I won't go as far as Tebbit's comments that he will have found himself a warm place in Hell as it's likely that his hero Thatcher will be saving a room next to hers down the same corridor !

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:39 pm

Not sure what you mean by MM'S "reign of terror" exactly, FC, but I was 20 at the time of the Brum pub bombings in 1974 if that's of any use.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:41 pm

He died of a rare Heart Condition.................apparently he didnt have one !!

NCClaret · Post by **NCClaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:44 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:Well, he liked to portray himself as a hard-case politician - what better way to stand up for your political principles ? (no pun intended, Norm)

... this and your previous post on Tebbit are simply breathtaking, horrible responses.

There is much to condemn McGuinness for and some will laud his part in the 'peace process'. I have my views on him borne out by experience. Perhaps on this issue the best way to summarise his life is one of simply reporting his death and moving on, certainly not lionising him as some are attempting.

Your response to a different view to yours is crass and insensitive. Forget a clever reply ... I don't think you will be able to recognise the sensitivity of all this so wouldn't want to engage any further on this with you.

NCClaret · Post by **NCClaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:44 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:Well, he liked to portray himself as a hard-case politician - what better way to stand up for your political principles ? (no pun intended, Norm)

... this and your previous post on Tebbit are simply breathtaking, horrible responses.

There is much to condemn McGuinness for and some will laud his part in the 'peace process'. I have my views on him borne out by experience. Perhaps on this issue the best way to summarise his life is one of simply reporting his death and moving on, certainly not lionising him as some are attempting.

Your response to a different view to yours is crass and insensitive. Forget a clever reply ... I don't think you will be able to recognise the sensitivity of all this so wouldn't want to engage any further on this with you.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:45 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:Not sure what you mean by MM'S "reign of terror" exactly, FC, but I was 20 at the time of the Brum pub bombings in 1974 if that's of any use.

Thanks. Not sure what else you could call it other than a reign of terror ? At least thats how I remember it.

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:09 pm

Some background to the troubles.

The Irish Holocaust

"...Consequently; if Britain's census figures for Ireland are correct the British government murdered approximately 5.16 million Irish men, women and children; making it the Irish Holocaust. This number, 5.16 million, exceeds the high end of the range (4.2 to 5.1 million) of serious estimates of the number of Jews murdered by Nazis...."

http://www.irishholocaust.org/tollofholocaust" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Irish Holocaust , historys largest cover up?

"..Grossly over-populated relative to its food supply, England faced famine unless it could import vast amounts of alternative food.
But it didn't grab merely Ireland's surplus food; or enough Irish food to save England. It took more; for profit and to exterminate the people of Ireland. Queen Victoria's economist, Nassau Senior, expressed his fear that existing policies "will not kill more than one million Irish in 1848 and that will scarcely be enough to do much good."
When an eye-witness urged a stop to the genocide-in-progress, Trevelyan replied: "We must not complain of what we really want to obtain.
" Trevelyan insisted that all reports of starvation were exaggerated, until 1847. He then declared it ended and refused entry to the American food relief ship Sorciére. Thomas Carlyle; influential British essayist, wrote; "Ireland is like a half-starved rat that crosses the path of an elephant. What must the elephant do? Squelch it - by heavens - squelch it." "Total Annihilation;" suggested The Times leader of September 2, 1846; and in 1848 its editorialists crowed
"A Celt will soon be as rare on the banks of the Shannon as the red man on the banks of Manhattan."..."

http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/23 ... er-up.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;