Kelvin MacKenzie attacking Liverpool again

[Spiral]

I think the point at which a person's argument hangs entirely on their own politically convenient definition of 'animal intelligence' is the point at which you let them have the final word and congratulate them on their imaginary 'win', because at that point you're no longer arguing in the plane of any kind of objective reality; to indulge them any further is folly.

[Rowls]

I'm not sure anyone on here said that gorillas were intelligent, and they're not...(

Actually, there IS a poster putting it forward that gorillas are intelligent. He goes by the user name fidelcastro:

Gorillas aren't renowned for their stupidity, you know?

Another poster goes one step further. He opines that gorilla's intelligence is evident when you see them.

Exactly! It all falls down around his claim that when you look in a gorilla's eyes in a zoo the lights are on but nobody's home. He's either never seen a gorilla or he's choosing a gorilla for another reason!

And besides, this is a non-sequitur. The point in question is why McKenzie chose the metaphor.

I think it's pretty obvious. So obvious that droves of people have apparently missed it. Ross Barkley is both thick and built like a BSH with huge frigging shoulders.

This whole thread and the whole silly story is nothing more than a continuation of the Scousers perma-campaign against the Sun and Kelvin McKenzie.

If joining in with this campaign is your thing then go for it. I don't agree with it or think it worthwhile but it's your time and effort.

The thing that I find insulting and frightening is the attempts to accuse him of outright racism. This is the road to modern-day McCarthyism as far as I'm concerned - It's not a sensible discussion or debate about whether a man may or may not be a racist; it's a public defamation of character and firm insinuation that the man in question is a racist.

The Sun is a tabloid newspaper and as such often reflects the baser elements of British society. For example, until very, very recently it reflected the widespread homophobia that was prevalent in our culture.

But I do not know of a single example of it being OUTRIGHT racist since its inception in the 1970s. Not one. Not a single effing headline, article or comment. Happy to be proved wrong on this one so get searching. The gauntlet is down. I've read the Sun occasionally since I could read. I don't recall a single outright racist article ever. A few that touched on racial sensitivities and discussed problems that exist on racially-defined fault-lines in society but you find far more articles discussing those kind of subjects in broadsheet papers.

If you or anyone imagines for a second that a paper as successful and well produced as the Sun would be daft enough to print an article that was being deliberately racist in this day and age then you're welcome to that opinion.

[Rowls]

I think the point at which a person's argument hangs entirely on their own politically convenient definition of 'animal intelligence' is the point at which you let them have the final word and congratulate them on their imaginary 'win', because at that point you're no longer arguing in the plane of any kind of objective reality; to indulge them any further is folly.

See above. Gorilla intelligence is a non-sequitur.

[Lancasterclaret]

If you or anyone imagines for a second that a paper as successful and well produced as the Sun would be daft enough to print an article that was being deliberately racist in this day and age then you're welcome to that opinion.

The Sun prides itself on writing stories its readers want to read.

Are you really, really, really, really, really sure that this isn't just them testing the water to see how far they can go with their bigotry and get away with it?

[fidelcastro]

But I didn't use the word "intelligent", did I?

If I thought that Gorillas were intelligent, then I would've said that gorillas were intelligent, and I just didn't. Stop making stuff up.

[HelloHiGoodbye]

Actually, there IS a poster putting it forward that gorillas are intelligent. He goes by the user name fidelcastro:



Another poster goes one step further. He opines that gorilla's intelligence is evident when you see them.



And besides, this is a non-sequitur. The point in question is why McKenzie chose the metaphor.

I think it's pretty obvious. So obvious that droves of people have apparently missed it. Ross Barkley is both thick and built like a BSH with huge frigging shoulders.

This whole thread and the whole silly story is nothing more than a continuation of the Scousers perma-campaign against the Sun and Kelvin McKenzie.

If joining in with this campaign is your thing then go for it. I don't agree with it or think it worthwhile but it's your time and effort.

The thing that I find insulting is the attempts to accuse him of outright racism. The Sun is a tabloid newspaper and as such often reflects the baser elements of British society. For example, until very, very recently it reflected the widespread homophobia that was prevalent in our culture.

But I do not know of a single example of it being OUTRIGHT racist since its inception in the 1970s. Not one. Not a single effing headline, article or comment. Happy to be proved wrong on this one so get searching. The gauntlet is down. I've read the Sun occasionally since I could read. I don't recall a single outright racist article ever. A few that touched on racial sensitivities and discussed problems that exist on racially-defined fault-lines in society but you find far more articles discussing those kind of subjects in broadsheet papers.

If you or anyone imagines for a second that a paper as successful and well produced as the Sun would be daft enough to print an article that was being deliberately racist in this day and age then you're welcome to that opinion.

Pretty much every S*n front page regarding the EU referendum was racist or xenophobic. Perhaps not 'outright' as you're so keen to stress but that's the point - it's always hidden, often loosely, behind a pun or something similar. It's there though, like a drip feed.

[Rowls]

Rowls has spoken.
Nothing to see here then. Right wing nutjob writing in a right wing nutjob paper defended by a right wing nutjob who doesn't even live in this country anymore.
Standard these days sadly

Jeez Lancs. Get some thicker skin man.

Or engage properly in the argument rather than sniping.

The top of his profession?
The S*n?
Oh please!

Editing the Sun in the 1980s not one of the the top jobs in journalism?

It was THE top job in journalism.

[KRBFC]

Wait, what's everybody on here getting offended on Barkleys behalf about? Far too many people live their life being offended at everything. A white man gets called a gorilla and people go ape sh*t? What's the human race becoming? Its honestly hilarious what some people take offence over.

[fidelcastro]

Jeez Lancs. Get some thicker skin man.

Or engage properly in the argument rather than sniping.



Editing the Sun in the 1980s not one of the the top jobs in journalism?

It was THE top job in journalism.

I can only deduce from that, that standards weren't very high back then, in that case.

A fine job he did though... "HILLSBOROUGH, THE TRUTH"

[Lancasterclaret]

What argument?

You've got a reprehensible article in a reprehensible paper being defended by a non-Uk resident with very right wing views.

it was you who told me to be more candid!

[Greenmile]

Possibly, just possibly it's one of these reasons that a man who has been a professional journalist for 40-50 years thought the metaphor worked.

I think it's a little more likely that someone who has been a professional "journalist" for all that time knew full well that comparing a young man with Nigerian heritage to a gorilla would serve as a perfect dog-whistle to the S*n's many racist readers. He just got the pitch a little too low this time.

Still, there will always be people like you bending over backwards to absolve him of racism because, after all, accusing a racist of being racist is a far worse crime than actual racism in your mind.

[Rowls]

But I didn't use the word "intelligent", did I?
If I thought that Gorillas were intelligent, then I would've said that gorillas were intelligent, and I just didn't. Stop making stuff up.

May I introduce you to my magician friend? His name is The Marvellous Inference Man. His "magic" trick is to insult you without calling you a name.

What would you like to say to fidelcastro, Marvellous Inference Man?

"He's posted some really, really, smashing posts on this thread."

Anything else to say?

"No. I think we've covered it."

The Sun prides itself on writing stories its readers want to read.
Are you really, really, really, really, really sure that this isn't just them testing the water to see how far they can go with their bigotry and get away with it?

This.

THIS.

THIS!!!

This is what I am EXACTLY sure was going to happen. As I posted before:

I bet the Sun have had to cancel tomorrow's plan for a full front page "Seig Heil!" headline. And all because people like yourself were ever vigilant!
Well done everybody.

But I'm glad I was asked to restate it for the record.

May the record show that Rowls knew what the Sun was up to. And he posted it TWICE.

[Greenmile]

Actually, there IS a poster putting it forward that gorillas are intelligent. He goes by the user name fidelcastro:



Another poster goes one step further. He opines that gorilla's intelligence is evident when you see them.



And besides, this is a non-sequitur. The point in question is why McKenzie chose the metaphor.

I think it's pretty obvious. So obvious that droves of people have apparently missed it. Ross Barkley is both thick and built like a BSH with huge frigging shoulders.

This whole thread and the whole silly story is nothing more than a continuation of the Scousers perma-campaign against the Sun and Kelvin McKenzie.

If joining in with this campaign is your thing then go for it. I don't agree with it or think it worthwhile but it's your time and effort.

The thing that I find insulting and frightening is the attempts to accuse him of outright racism. This is the road to modern-day McCarthyism as far as I'm concerned - It's not a sensible discussion or debate about whether a man may or may not be a racist; it's a public defamation of character and firm insinuation that the man in question is a racist.

The Sun is a tabloid newspaper and as such often reflects the baser elements of British society. For example, until very, very recently it reflected the widespread homophobia that was prevalent in our culture.

But I do not know of a single example of it being OUTRIGHT racist since its inception in the 1970s. Not one. Not a single effing headline, article or comment. Happy to be proved wrong on this one so get searching. The gauntlet is down. I've read the Sun occasionally since I could read. I don't recall a single outright racist article ever. A few that touched on racial sensitivities and discussed problems that exist on racially-defined fault-lines in society but you find far more articles discussing those kind of subjects in broadsheet papers.

If you or anyone imagines for a second that a paper as successful and well produced as the Sun would be daft enough to print an article that was being deliberately racist in this day and age then you're welcome to that opinion.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media ... 51856.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[No Ney Never]

Wait, A white man gets called a gorilla and people go ape sh*t?

[fidelcastro]

May I introduce you to my magician friend? His name is The Marvellous Inference Man. His "magic" trick is to insult you without calling you a name.

What would you like to say to fidelcastro, Marvellous Inference Man?

"He's posted some really, really, smashing posts on this thread."

Anything else to say?

"No. I think we've covered it."



This.

THIS.

THIS!!!

This is what I am EXACTLY sure was going to happen. As I posted before:



But I'm glad I was asked to restate it for the record.

May the record show that Rowls knew what the Sun was up to. And he posted it TWICE.

You've made a right tit of yourself on this thread, and I think you know it.

Please stay in bloody France!

[KRBFC]

So, why did he make the comparison with a gorilla, Rowls?

I know you like to defend right wing obscurantists like Mackenzie, but I thought even you might draw a line somewhere.

You love to be offended on other peoples behalf don't you?
Why do you think he made the comparison with a gorilla? Gorillas aren't white and Barkley isn't black?

Who honestly gives a toss if this Mackenzie bloke is the biggest racist ever? There will always be racist people about, you just have to learn to put up with other peoples view.

[Greenmile]

You love to be offended on other peoples behalf don't you?
Why do you think he made the comparison with a gorilla? Gorillas aren't white and Barkley isn't black?

Who honestly gives a toss if this Mackenzie bloke is the biggest racist ever? There will always be racist people about, you just have to learn to put up with other peoples view.

No one should have to learn to "put up with" racism.

[Spiral]

Wait, what's everybody on here getting offended on Barkleys behalf about? Far too many people live their life being offended at everything. A white man gets called a gorilla and people go ape sh*t? What's the human race becoming? Its honestly hilarious what some people take offence over.

I believe your indifference towards a total lack of respect shown towards another Human being and hostility towards its opposition stems from issues of misplaced masculinity and unresolved sexuality.

Just like every other f.ucker defending Mackenzie.

[fidelcastro]

You love to be offended on other peoples behalf don't you?
Why do you think he made the comparison with a gorilla? Gorillas aren't white and Barkley isn't black?

Who honestly gives a toss if this Mackenzie bloke is the biggest racist ever? There will always be racist people about, you just have to learn to put up with other peoples view.

Who said I was offended?

You've got it spectacularly wrong yet again on here.

The debate is whether Mackenzie knew what he was writing, and whether a crime has been committed if he did.

Go and educate yourself, belmtard!

[Rowls]

I can only deduce from that, that standards weren't very high back then, in that case.

The Sun outsold every paper in Britain by a large margin.

If you think it wasn't the top job you are sadly mistaken.

What argument?
You've got a reprehensible article in a reprehensible paper being defended by a non-Uk resident with very right wing views.
it was you who told me to be more candid!

The argument is obviously to all but the gorillas Lancaster - were the comments deliberately racist or simply a comment on Barkley's perceived lack of intelligence?

Also, I don not hold "very right wing views". On politcal spectrums I am consistently socially "neutral" between 'left' and 'right' scales but with a mild inclination to the 'right' school of thought when it comes to economic policy.

It is simply that when I post on left-wing echo chambers (also known as "the internet") it is easy for less-intelligent people to falsely assume I am "right wing" simply because I oppose lefties.

[Rowls]

You've made a right tit of yourself on this thread, and I think you know it.
Please stay in bloody France!

fidel, the idea that Kelvin MacKenzie was being deliberately racist or -better still- "testing the water" for an on-coming onslaught of genuinely racist articles is pigswill and sewerage.

If people want to bash the Sun or slag off McKenzie then go ahead. But don't go making up crap about him being "racist". You've plenty of other stuff to get your teeth into.

[Bordeauxclaret]

You've made a right tit of yourself on this thread, and I think you know it.

Please stay in bloody France!

This thread???

[Greenmile]

The Sun outsold every paper in Britain by a large margin.

If you think it wasn't the top job you are sadly mistaken.



The argument is obviously to all but the gorillas Lancaster - were the comments deliberately racist or simply a comment on Barkley's perceived lack of intelligence.

Also, I don not hold "very right wing views". On politcal spectrums I am consistently socially "neutral" between 'left' and 'right' scales but with a mild inclination to the 'right' school of thought when it comes to economic policy.

It is simply that when I post on left-wing echo chambers (also known as "the internet") it is easy for less-intelligent people to falsely assume I am "right wing" simply because I oppose lefties.

"I'm not right wing but the entire internet is a left wing echo chamber"

[Rowls]

Please stay in bloody France!

BTW - I'll live where I want and how I want.

[Spiral]

Greenmile's comment about dog-whistles is bang on the money. You aren't opposing 'lefties', you're opposing objective reality.

[Rowls]

"I'm not right wing but the entire internet is a left wing echo chamber"

Hmmmmm?

*insert that meme of Fry from Futurama trying to work out if you're serious or not*

Was I being entirely serious when I said the whole internet was a left wing echo chamber?

If only there were some clues in my writing.

[KRBFC]

I believe your indifference towards a total lack of respect shown towards another Human being and hostility towards its opposition stems from issues of misplaced masculinity and unresolved sexuality.

Just like every other f.ucker defending Mackenzie.

Unresolved sexuality? What a strange comment.
I'm not defending this Mackenzie guy, I don't even know who he is. I just don't give a toss that he called Ross Barkley an ape and I struggle to understand why people really care. What's the next thing to take offence too? Rooney being called Shrek? Lampard called fat Frank?

I think you're the one hiding your sexuality, cry w*nking into a Sun newspaper after reading my posts. You big antelope (sh*t, that was racist)

[Rowls]

Greenmile's comment about dog-whistles is bang on the money. You aren't opposing 'lefties', you're opposing objective reality.

If a dog whistle has been blown then we can be sure of one thing:

The only ones who actually heard it were the left-wing mutts keen to find racism everywhere.

[fidelcastro]

fidel, the idea that Kelvin MacKenzie was being deliberately racist or -better still- "testing the water" for an on-coming onslaught of genuinely racist articles is pigswill and sewerage.

If people want to bash the Sun or slag off McKenzie then go ahead. But don't go making up crap about him being "racist". You've plenty of other stuff to get your teeth into.

We're going around in circles, Rowls, but I think it's pretty obvious what he meant. Anyone with a scintilla of intelligence can see that. A pity that you seem educated beyond your own intelligence.

[Lancasterclaret]

We are talking about the same newspaper here Rowls aren't we?

I mean, you make it sound like, well, some sort of right wing version of the Guardian.

Its the ******* Sun, its only just got past the idea of no longer having a lass with her baps out commenting on the main political issue of the day.

[Greenmile]

Hmmmmm?

*insert that meme of Fry from Futurama trying to work out if you're serious or not*

Was I being entirely serious when I said the whole internet was a left wing echo chamber?

If only there were some clues in my writing.

Were you being entirely serious when you claimed not to be right wing? It's difficult for you to argue that any other part of your post was a "joke" if you're claiming that such a ludicrous proposition wasn't one.

[KRBFC]

Who said I was offended?

You've got it spectacularly wrong yet again on here.

The debate is whether Mackenzie knew what he was writing, and whether a crime has been committed if he did.

Go and educate yourself, belmtard!

Lock him up throw away the key, how dare he call a white man a gorilla. I honestly wonder how some people get through life, you must spend a fortune on tissue while reading a newspaper or watching a comedian like Frankie Boyle.

[Lancasterclaret]

BTW - I'll live where I want and how I want.

Ah, you might not be aware of this , but have you heard of freedom of movement and the right to work anywhere in the EU. Rumour has it that the UK isn't too keen on this, and that might no longer be a guarantee.

[Rowls]

I think it's a little more likely that someone who has been a professional "journalist" for all that time knew full well that comparing a young man with Nigerian heritage to a gorilla would serve as a perfect dog-whistle to the S*n's many racist readers. He just got the pitch a little too low this time.

Still, there will always be people like you bending over backwards to absolve him of racism because, after all, accusing a racist of being racist is a far worse crime than actual racism in your mind.

Just seen this.

It's a pile of ****.

1. I do not, never have, never will "absolve" anyone who is racist. Kelvin McKenzie simply has not been racist here.
2. Accusing a racist of being a racist is not as bad as racism. But throwing accusations at people who are not racist is. And accusing people of being racist without proof is a very slipperly slope that should concern anyone with a smidgeon of regard for human rights.

As you're effectively accusing me of excusing a racist you're effectively accusing me of siding with racist so I can tell you categorically to fu ck off.

[HelloHiGoodbye]

Lock him up throw away the key, how dare he call a white man a gorilla. I honestly wonder how some people get through life, you must spend a fortune on tissue while reading a newspaper or watching a comedian like Frankie Boyle.

You just keep polishing your I-Don't-Care-About-Anything medal.

[Greenmile]

You're siding with Mackenzie. Mackenzie is a racist. You're siding with a racist. Looks like I've touched a nerve - I've never known you to swear on here before.

Edit - in reply to post 84, obviously.

[KRBFC]

No one should have to learn to "put up with" racism.

Some people are racist, regardless of what you think you cannot change that. There will always be racist people somewhere, you just have to accept that and live your own life.

[Spiral]

Lock him up throw away the key, how dare he call a white man a gorilla. I honestly wonder how some people get through life, you must spend a fortune on tissue while reading a newspaper or watching a comedian like Frankie Boyle.

This is my favourite post on this thread.

I think you've completely misread Frankie Boyle's comedic method.

By the way, here's an article on the history of simianisation, which I know you aren't going to read.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-conve ... 45322.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

I love it when a person wants to infer a thing from something I wrote (apparently I said that gorillas are intelligent) but won't allow other people to infer a thing from something someone else wrote. He must be the only one allowed to do this inferring stuff.

[KRBFC]

You just keep polishing your I-Don't-Care-About-Anything medal.

I certainly don't give a toss about an irrelevant writer calling a white man an ape.

[HelloHiGoodbye]

I certainly don't give a toss about an irrelevant writer calling a white man an ape.

Unfortunately, he's not irrelevant.

[Rowls]

We're going around in circles, Rowls, but I think it's pretty obvious what he meant. Anyone with a scintilla of intelligence can see that. A pity that you seem educated beyond your own intelligence.

OK.

I *think* the idea that McKenzie deliberately intended to be racist here is pigswill and codswollop of the highest order.

You *think* the article was deliberately racist.

Neither of us can prove our cases. Unless there is evidence of him confessing to your version of events it will be entirely down to his word.

But even if I was inclined to believe your *thoughts* on the matter I find your willingness to condemn the man out outright racism to be dangerous and worrying. Particularly as so many appear to be supportive of this stance.

Q. Why is it worrying for me?

A. It's worrying because it is essentalaly trial without evidence. You want him to be convicted of "Possible Racism". You are effectively accusing the man of committing thought crime.

OK, so I'd support him even if I suspected him of having a secret racist motivation - are my actions akin to supporting a racist?

A. No. I'm happy for people who are racist to receive social approbation. But if we're to go around publicly proclaiming people to be "racist" then we ought to have the dignity and sense to have evidence of the fact. Fair trials are a pretty fundamental human right. OK, so we're discussing the matter on an internet forum and not a court room but I rather believe that the civilised notion of fair trials should be adopted by civilised people no matter what the circumstances.

I hope that clarifies things fidel.

All the best and goodnight.

[fidelcastro]

Some people are racist, regardless of what you think you cannot change that. There will always be racist people somewhere, you just have to accept that and live your own life.

I'm glad Martin Luther King didn't just accept that some people were racist.

[Greenmile]

Some people are racist, regardless of what you think you cannot change that. There will always be racist people somewhere, you just have to accept that and live your own life.

I will say it again, I do not have to accept racism. Would you have said the same to MLK, Nelson Mandela or Rosa Parks? (for clarity, I'm not comparing myself to them)

Edit - Fidel beat me to it

[Bordeauxclaret]

Some people are racist, regardless of what you think you cannot change that. There will always be racist people somewhere, you just have to accept that and live your own life.

Does that also apply to managers who don't play "attractive" football?

[KRBFC]

Unfortunately, he's not irrelevant.

I have no idea who Mackenzie is nor do I ever read The Sun. So to me, Mackenzie is irrelevant.

[Spiral]

I have no idea who Mackenzie is nor do I ever read The Sun. So to me, Mackenzie is irrelevant.

Try empathising with others. Don't worry, it doesn't mean you're gay.

[Rowls]

You're siding with Mackenzie. Mackenzie is a racist. You're siding with a racist. Looks like I've touched a nerve - I've never known you to swear on here before.

Edit - in reply to post 84, obviously.

I always swear at people who accuse me of racism or siding with racists. ALWAYS.

It doesn't happen that often because the bast majority of people (even those I disagree with vehemently) are decent people.

You have lowered yourself to the level of a racist.

If you knew ANYTHING about me as a person or my private life you would be embarrassed to kingdom come to even think about calling me a racist or even "siding with a racist".

If you saw somebody dishing out racist abuse maybe you'd tell them to eff off? That's what's happened here. You're the one dishing out crap and I'm the one who's told you to shut up with swear words.

You should apologise. And if you do I'll apologise for swearing.

[fidelcastro]

Fair play Rowls, but you haven't changed my mind.

Goodnight to you too.

[HelloHiGoodbye]

I have no idea who Mackenzie is nor do I ever read The Sun. So to me, Mackenzie is irrelevant.

I wouldn't so readily admit to being so blinkered but fair play.