Kelvin MacKenzie attacking Liverpool again

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:14 am

I think it's time for bed now.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:18 am

How about engaging the argument. It's alarming how many times I'm actually having to say this.

You can't patronise your way to saving face. You give the people reading this forum far too little credit.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:19 am

Spiral wrote:A rosy sentiment I can sympathise with but without acknowledgement of historical context or an acknowledgement that animalisation exists today, (as evidenced by this thread's very existence), is tantamount to putting your fingers in your ears singing 'la la la, nothing to see here'.

I'll re-link this article posted earlier.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-conve ... 45322.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No it isn't. Your article says the same, in much more detail, as I said - that historically and presently, black men have been associated with apes, and that this is a very bad thing. And I'm saying that we need to stop this association. Somehow.

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:23 am

Spiral wrote:
You can't patronise your way to saving face. You give the people reading this forum far too little credit.

never a truer word was spoken on this forum.

the only reason rowls lurks here is to patronise.

he is a bully. no doubt he is a lovely lad in person.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:24 am

dsr wrote:No it isn't. Your article says the same, in much more detail, as I said - that historically and presently, black men have been associated with apes, and that this is a very bad thing. And I'm saying that we need to stop this association. Somehow.

I don't necessarily disagree, but if we're in disagreement about anything, it's the false equivalence you posit;

dsr wrote:It certainly would be. As would the jokes that Tom O'Connor tells about Liverpudlians, unfortunately - it seems that half the population takes things altogether too far, while the other half jumps on the slightest bit of a joke as unacceptable.

It's the one about so-called "gingers" that gets my goat most of all. The casual abuse thrown out at people with red hair is A Bad Thing. IMO. I'm not the most empathetic of people, but I can imagine children being well upset.

There was a great post on here a few months ago about racism being more about power (or lack of) than placing people into arbitrary groups. Show me the historic, systemic, institutionalised subjugation of gingers and I'll listen.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:46 am

I'm guessing those that seem to think that Mackenzie had no racial motive, also think the same of the paper he writes for, who also published this in the same article, according to the BBC report that has run the story on his suspension.

"Alongside the article, The Sun published adjoining pictures of Barkley and a gorilla on their website with the caption "Could Everton's Ross Barkley represent the missing link between man and beast?" The picture was later removed.

Hmmm... go figure.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:50 am

Spiral wrote:There was a great post on here a few months ago about racism being more about power (or lack of) than placing people into arbitrary groups. Show me the historic, systemic, institutionalised subjugation of gingers and I'll listen.

That's where we would have to differ. As far as I'm concerned, if there are two children going through hell at school, one picked on for black skin and one picked on for red hair, I don't think it makes any difference that one had great-grandparents who were slaves and the other didn't. I'm quite sure it would make no difference to the child.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:08 am

dsr wrote:That's where we would have to differ. As far as I'm concerned, if there are two children going through hell at school, one picked on for black skin and one picked on for red hair, I don't think it makes any difference that one had great-grandparents who were slaves and the other didn't. I'm quite sure it would make no difference to the child.

Differ? I might as well re-post my last comment because you seem to have completely ignored my point. I'm not disputing that being picked on as a child for having red hair must be terrible, speaking as a brother to a former anorexic who went through exactly that at school.

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:11 am

nearly 160 posts on this rather non-subject.

kelvin mackenzie is a chancer who has created a career writing for and editing filth like the sun.

he is a pornographer. nothing more.

judge him thus.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:13 am

Disagree, yTib. People in porn consent to being f.ucked. MacKenzie's targets don't.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:23 am

Here's a fine example of what a lovely bloke Kelvin Mackenzie is...

https://youtu.be/_meOwyOZxDE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:24 am

consent to being fukced?

but we digress.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:30 am

In summary, Mackenzie is an absolute cretin. So is Ross Barkley. The sun is an absolute awful rag of a newspaper and Scousers love being offended.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:32 am

And being offended on their behalf is cool in some quarters

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:39 am

What exactly has Ross Barkley done, publicly, to be held in the same esteem as Kelvin MacKenzie? You're also employing a lazy stereotype of Scousers to the same effect as MacKenzie intended in his reference to drug dealers. Congratulations on finding common ground with the...

Damo wrote:absolute cretin

...Kelvin MacKenzie.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:43 am

Rowls wrote:I think it's time for bed now.

I think you probably should have come to that conclusion five hours ago.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:56 am

Spiral wrote:Differ? I might as well re-post my last comment because you seem to have completely ignored my point. I'm not disputing that being picked on as a child for having red hair must be terrible, speaking as a brother to a former anorexic who went through exactly that at school.

I haven't ignored it, at least not deliberately, just completely missed it. I read it as you saying that bullying of red haired children is different from bullying of black skinned children because there is a long history of racism and not of hairism - my point being that I don't see the relevance. What did I miss?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:01 am

The false equivalence of racial bigotry and hair colour based bigotry.

edit-I'm stunned I actually need to explain this.

edit 2-If bigotry began and ended at playground bullying, I'd be completely on board with that you're saying. In fact, as far as playground bullying is concerned, I am completely on board. Don't try to mis-characterise me as being otherwise.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:23 am

I still don't get the reasons for your vehement objections. I say there are similarities (I certainly didn't use the term equivalence) between racial and hair-colour bullying, you say that they aren't equivalent but agree there are similarities. Is that so different? I never meant to imply the two are identical, just similar, especially in their effects on an individual.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:23 am

I've made another post because I don't like endless edits.

dsr wrote:I read it as you saying that bullying of red haired children is different from bullying of black skinned children because there is a long history of racism and not of hairism

Not only history, prevalence today. The false equivalence serves to downplay racial bigotry, either deliberately or inadvertently. I don't think you're a bad guy, dsr. I'd never accuse you of being malicious.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:49 am

Jesus Christ Dsr.

No point posting anything else.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:10 am

Is hairism a real thing ?

Is it akin to slapheadism ?

Is Harry Hill the next Martin Luther King ?

Is Ron Weesley the new Malcolm X ? (Red Power)

Questions....questions

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:41 am

KRBFC wrote:I have no idea who Mackenzie is nor do I ever read The Sun. So to me, Mackenzie is irrelevant.

You really have no idea who he is?

Mayoclaret · Post by **Mayoclaret** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:11 am

Give Peace A Chance .....John Lennon, possibly alternate take version???!!

Everybody's talking about
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism
Ragism, Tagism, Hairism, this-ism, that-ism
Ism ism ism

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:59 am

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:You really have no idea who he is?

Absolutely no idea nor do I care who he is or what his views on Barkley are.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:11 am

KRBFC wrote:Absolutely no idea nor do I care who he is or what his views on Barkley are.

So why do you feel a need to post on a thread that you know nothing or care about ?

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:40 pm

Damo wrote:In summary, Mackenzie is an absolute cretin. So is Ross Barkley. The sun is an absolute awful rag of a newspaper and Scousers love being offended.

Yet people continue to bicker and write paragraphs to each other like they're Ross Barkleys dad. I bet some of the posters on here and more offended than Barkley himself, strange really.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:47 pm

Everton have now banned the Sun from Goodison.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:48 pm

: IMG_9897.JPG (145.49 KiB) Viewed 4427 times

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:56 pm

If this was a racial reference, the outrage is justified. However it's perhaps more likely that this was, as inferred in the article, a reference to his intelligence (or lack of).

The primate to Neanderthal Man, to modern man image has often been used to suggest a lack of intelligence. It's hardly a tenuous link to compare his intelligence to that of a gorilla.

MacKenzie is an odious bloke but I'm a little uncomfortable with him being branded as a racist on the back of this article. Guilty of stupidity certainly but based solely on this incident, it's a step too far to suggest that he was being racist.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:28 pm

Right, I'm confused.

What exactly did the gorilla write about a player called Kevin who doesn't like scousers that makes him racist for living in France and sitting in the sun?

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:29 pm

KRBFC wrote:Absolutely no idea nor do I care who he is or what his views on Barkley are.

Find that hard to believe.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:06 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Do you really believe that?

Why, out of all animals, did he pick a gorilla do you think?

Gorillas aren't renowned for their stupidity, you know?

I do yes. Because theyre more easy to compare to humans. Perhaps he could have used an alternate term but it wouldnt have been as strong a comparison.

Gorillas are intelligent of course. In their own way.

Its a **** story. And pretty shocking comparison. But i understand why he used an ape over a bird or a lizard etc.

What needs questioning is not only the journo but the editor. How was this story allowed to be published?

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:09 pm

Rowls wrote:There ain't half been some tosh posted on here today.

The last time I went to the zoo the gorilla was picking its bum and sniffing its fingers.

Intelligent? About as much as some of the comments here.

Dont be animalist.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:30 pm

DCWat wrote:If this was a racial reference, the outrage is justified. However it's perhaps more likely that this was, as inferred in the article, a reference to his intelligence (or lack of).

The primate to Neanderthal Man, to modern man image has often been used to suggest a lack of intelligence. It's hardly a tenuous link to compare his intelligence to that of a gorilla.

MacKenzie is an odious bloke but I'm a little uncomfortable with him being branded as a racist on the back of this article. Guilty of stupidity certainly but based solely on this incident, it's a step too far to suggest that he was being racist.

You mean this one?

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:15 pm

Im just going to leave this here. I would refer you to posts 42 and 45, along with the dictionary definition of "hypocrisy".

It seems that accusing someone of thinking that others are racist requires a much lower burden of proof than calling out actual racists.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ilit=Catch" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

morpheus2 · Post by **morpheus2** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:55 am

I don't understand this post, this MacKenzie seems like a horrible chap, but how is calling a football player 'gorilla' racist?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:07 am

morpheus2 wrote:I don't understand this post, this MacKenzie seems like a horrible chap, but how is calling a football player 'gorilla' racist?

Turns out Barkley has got a Nigerian grandad and his dad is half cast too.

Most of us wouldn't know this because we don't trawl through players family lineage, nor do most of us remember Barkley making a big deal about choosing to play for England over Nigeria.

It's debatable that MacKenzie knew this before he basically called Barkley dumb.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:08 am

I know, morpheus. How weird, eh ?
Just imagine if KM had called the lad a "spastic" or something....you know what, people would still have complained....
Are you seriously saying you don't get what the fuss is about ? Honestly ?

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:10 am

I think the timing and content of the stupid, lazy article suggest KM knew exactly what he was doing.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:20 am

morpheus2 wrote:I don't understand this post, this MacKenzie seems like a horrible chap, but how is calling a football player 'gorilla' racist?

Gorillas are white, Barkley is white. Racist. You said the word "gorilla" so you are now a Hitler racist too, maybe the mods should ban the word "Gorilla" for the sensitive bunch.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:07 am

Tum te tum..............

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue May 16, 2017 8:21 am

Leaves the Sun by 'Mutual Consent'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39926876" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A really nasty and evil piece of work.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Tue May 16, 2017 8:32 am

I'm not going to celebrate this. He's probably got a nice little pay-off.

The boycott of the Sun newspaper in the city of Liverpool is admirable. Just wish the rest of the country would follow suit.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Tue May 16, 2017 9:01 am

i wonder how effective the boycott is, if you went over there, surely there are shops selling it and people buying iy, even on the outskirts.

boiledclaret · Post by **boiledclaret** » Tue May 16, 2017 10:02 am

BBC reporting the story.

So that's a vile organization of pedo protecting c**** reporting on a vile lying bigoted c*** who wrote for a publication that's read by c****.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue May 16, 2017 10:05 am

Wile E Coyote wrote:i wonder how effective the boycott is, if you went over there, surely there are shops selling it and people buying iy, even on the outskirts.

I think you would struggle to find a shop that sells it. I suspect the likes of WH Smith do but not local newsagents.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Tue May 16, 2017 11:03 am

you'll see it on display with the other papers in bigger chains but nobody buys it.

a lot of shops used to stock it but keep it behind the counter so you'd have to ask for it which people were obviously unlikely to do.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:22 pm

boiledclaret wrote:BBC reporting the story.

So that's a vile organization of pedo protecting c**** reporting on a vile lying bigoted c*** who wrote for a publication that's read by c****.

A nicely balanced, authoritative argument. So vile you can't even spell "paedo" ?

It's a wonder KM hasn't put in his twopenneth regarding "Little Boy Blue."

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:30 pm

Little boy blue was excellent btw - harrowing and upsetting and still hard to believe how this can happen and hard it must have been (and still is) for the family.