Shane Long

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:07 pm

claretspice wrote:I think one of the things here is that the focus is on the extent to which Long can/will replace Gray's goals.

I'd argue this is the wrong starting point. Our strikers scored 25 league goals between them last season, which I would guess is more than virtually any other team in the bottom half of the table. I think West Brom's central strikers managed 10 between them.

The other players we used managed 14 between them. The midfielders we used last season managed 9 between them. Of those 9, I make it 2 were direct free kicks, and I can only think of 3 that were a consequence of a midfielder getting beyond the striker or into the box to convert a cross.

That's where our goalscoring problem lay, and largely still lies. If Shane Long signs and manages 4 goals this season and Vokes and Barnes match their tallies from last season, then we'll get 20 from our forwards. We ought to be expecting something like 15-16 from our various midfielders (and Hendrick in particular should be targeting between 5-10 from midfield; he's more than capable of it). Equally, 3 goals from our centre backs last season was paltry and we should be targeting at least double and possibly triple that number this season (Brady's delivery will help with this, as might Defour's right footed option should we see him more).

One thing Shane Long would do for us is give us a better forager into the channels when he played centrally, and a useful outlet on the counter attack if he plays wide (which would in turn allow us to play Defour and Hendrick centrally, with one free to get into those goalscoring positions). Ings did that to an extent, and it allowed the likes of Arfield to get into more advanced positions - we've got a midfield that ought to be far better at that now and we need to make more use of them.

I'm expecting that, with a better midfield that Vokes(especially) and Barnes might actually improve on their tallies.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:09 pm

KefkaClaret wrote:Well of the bottom half last season, Swansea(Llorente), Palace(Benteke), Bourneouth(King and Defoe) Leicester(Vardy). West Ham have signed Hernandez which is a great deal and Watford have signed Gray. Only Stoke probably have a worse striker force from teams last season.

How many games can you say that Gray made a real difference last season with his goal scoring?

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:09 pm

I think Brady should be aiming for at least 5 goals this season as well.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:11 pm

I think with Brady on one wing, possibly JBG on the other and potentially Charlie Taylor supplementing him from full back, and a greater emphasis on set plays, there's every chance we'll play more to the strengths of Vokes and Barnes and they'll score more. Spot on.

Its absurdly simplistic to say "Gray scored 9 goals last season, so we need at least 9 from the new striker to replace them".

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:24 pm

Long would be a good signing. He'd fit our style of play, knows half of the team already, give us the pace we're desperately lacking, has plenty of experience at this level and you would think would be ready to hit the ground running. I'd argue he could also operate as an impact sub better than any of our other players and that's certainly something we lacked last year.

Whether he is better than Gray or not is something of a moot point. Gray wanted out and he went. It's not as though Dyche was weighing up his options and decided to ditch him in favour of Long.

The reaction of some on here to Long as a potential signing is worrying though. After one season where we've, let's face it, stumbled over the line and just about managed to stay up people are demanding a striker with a track record guaranteeing 15 goals a season. Unrealistic expectations in the transfer market are the road to ruin and I'd hope the board don't start to bow to that pressure. Identifying up & coming talent or getting more out of experienced players than their previous clubs have managed is the only way we'll succeed at this level. I'm not saying don't spend money - just make sure it's spent wisely rather than to appease supporters with a big name.

PWBFC · Post by **PWBFC** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:30 pm

Long would be a great signing. Just because we've all heard of him doesn't make him uninspiring.

Good pace, massive leap, disciplines, hard worker and vastly experienced at our level. I would suggest his overall game is far more developed than Gray's.

Goody1975 · Post by **Goody1975** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:32 pm

A little quiz for some of you

https://www.sporcle.com/games/FourFourT ... rs-by-club" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:34 pm

PWBFC wrote:Long would be a great signing. Just because we've all heard of him doesn't make him uninspiring.

Good pace, massive leap, disciplines, hard worker and vastly experienced at our level. I would suggest his overall game is far more developed than Gray's.

And, I have a feeling he will link up very well with Vokes.

LaLigaClaret · Post by **LaLigaClaret** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:35 pm

One thing that everyone seems to have overlooked in all their analysis in comparing Long and Gray is the fact that Southampton will have created far more chances than we did last season so just comparing goal totals is pointless. I wouldn't mind Long coming in although he is 30 so will not have any resale value however we do need a second striker as I don't believe he will offer enough if he was the only one we sign. I would hope the possible link to De Preville or Zapata leads to something happening for us though I suspect a loan for Ings is more likely. Whatever happens I am beginning to believe that SD will be leaving us by Christmas if we don't get enough firepower in.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:36 pm

I can't help but think that, in all the furore around Gray's departure, Sam Vokes role in getting us goals is being overlooked.
Gray's return of 9 goals in an interrupted first season in the Top Flight was, in my opinion, quite commendable.
However, vokes' return of 11 was equally a remarkable when you consider that it is his first season as a regular starter in the Premier League and that he plays more of a Target Man role in the team.
He's 27 years old and has steadily got better and better for us as his career has progressed. I genuinely feel that the next three years or so will, barring injury, continue in that upward direction.
I'm not sure if Vokes sets himself numerical targets for goals but I feel that, providing he continues to take penalties in such a nerveless way, he could easily set a target of 15+ goals this term without much worry of disappointment.

LaLigaClaret · Post by **LaLigaClaret** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:37 pm

One other thought, would Long be enough if Vokes hade a long term injury ?

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:46 pm

Right_winger wrote:Shane Long is that impressive of a signing that nobody even hinted at him as a potential signing before the start of the transfer window opened, and now he's an upgrade on Gray? Have a look at yourselves.

Plenty of much better players in Europe and further afield who would be willing to come to the premier league and would also be much cheaper too.

Agreed. The idea that he's better than Gray is laughable. As is the idea that he's the best we can do.

BertiesBeehole · Post by **BertiesBeehole** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:48 pm

Going off minutes played he's got a ratio of a goal every 3 games in the Premier League

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:49 pm

Quicknick wrote:It's as impressive as we are going to attract at this level.

Vokes managed better than 1 in 4, playing in a less creative side. So no, it really isn't mate.

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:54 pm

I think Long would be a good signing. SD type of player and would be at home with half the squad before he even got here.

We lack a player with pace who can beat a defender 1 on 1 and Long is that player. I see him as more of a creator than an out and out goalscorer.

Would be more than happy with him but we would still need a goal poacher like Chris Woods to put those half chances away.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:54 pm

I think the post by Bacchus was aimed at you.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:57 pm

Goody1975 wrote:A little quiz for some of you

https://www.sporcle.com/games/FourFourT ... rs-by-club" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That can't be right. It has Vokes with 6 goals.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:00 pm

LaLigaClaret wrote:One thing that everyone seems to have overlooked in all their analysis in comparing Long and Gray is the fact that Southampton will have created far more chances than we did last season so just comparing goal totals is pointless.

Southampton scored 41 goals last year, Burnley 39. Are all their forwards worse than ours?

balzak69 · Post by **balzak69** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:05 pm

would be happy with Long, miles better in the air, holds the ball up better, controls the ball far better than trampoline legs that defected to Watford...Gray probably a better finisher in my opinion..and I suppose that's what strikers are paid for,but all round would be happy to see Long in a clarets shirt

LaLigaClaret · Post by **LaLigaClaret** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:09 pm

dsr wrote:Southampton scored 41 goals last year, Burnley 39. Are all their forwards worse than ours?

No the point I was making is that Gray probably scored a higher percentage of chances created for him than Long did with his thus making Gray more likely to score more than Long. Selling Gray for £18.5m was good financial business given he was in his last year of his contract but replacing him with Long is not the great solution a lot seem to think it is. Just on another note if Long was such a great idea then why did we try to sign Assombalonga ahead of him ?

lrac · Post by **lrac** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:18 pm

Just a question. Are we actually signing him or is it just another rumour ?.the lads at work are all talking about ings on loan

Quicknick · Post by **Quicknick** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:19 pm

Firthy wrote:I think Long would be a good signing. SD type of player and would be at home with half the squad before he even got here.

We lack a player with pace who can beat a defender 1 on 1 and Long is that player. I see him as more of a creator than an out and out goalscorer.

Would be more than happy with him but we would still need a goal poacher like Chris Woods to put those half chances away.

Chris Wood? I'd much rather have Vokes.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:24 pm

LaLigaClaret wrote:No the point I was making is that Gray probably scored a higher percentage of chances created for him than Long did with his thus making Gray more likely to score more than Long. Selling Gray for £18.5m was good financial business given he was in his last year of his contract but replacing him with Long is not the great solution a lot seem to think it is. Just on another note if Long was such a great idea then why did we try to sign Assombalonga ahead of him ?

Where's the evidence that Southampton created more chances but missed them? If a side scores more goals than us, then it seems likely they created more chances; but Southampton didn't. Are you saying that Gray, Vokes and Barnes are (as a group) better players and better goalscorers than Redmond, Austin, Rodriguez, Long and Gabbiadini?

As for Assombalonga, I don't think it would be wise to just have one target and one only. If you don't get your first choice, then you move on. Neymar probably wasn't PSG's first choice, but it doesn't mean he's no use.

FulledgeClaret · Post by **FulledgeClaret** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:30 pm

Long is not a bad forward with a bit of pace his scoring record is a bit meh but he could do a job for us for a season. The thing I don't like about this is the touted fee, if the best we can do is Shane Long for 12m (which is what Southampton paid for him 3 yr ago) the recruitment and negotiating team must be smoking something @ 5m yes go on then he's worth a punt as a temporary replacement for Gray but 12m is Southampton having our pants down for a 30 yr old fringe player who will be lucky to get a game for them this season. I would have preferred us to bite the bullet and pay a bit more to get Assombalonga or pay more wages and get Jay Rod for 12m.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:31 pm

dsr wrote:Where's the evidence that Southampton created more chances but missed them?

There's some evidence here

Longsider · Post by **Longsider** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:39 pm

Page 3 on some bloke in Southampton hearing a rumour . Any firm news on this happening ?

LaLigaClaret · Post by **LaLigaClaret** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:39 pm

dsr wrote:Where's the evidence that Southampton created more chances but missed them? If a side scores more goals than us, then it seems likely they created more chances; but Southampton didn't. Are you saying that Gray, Vokes and Barnes are (as a group) better players and better goalscorers than Redmond, Austin, Rodriguez, Long and Gabbiadini?

As for Assombalonga, I don't think it would be wise to just have one target and one only. If you don't get your first choice, then you move on. Neymar probably wasn't PSG's first choice, but it doesn't mean he's no use.

I think it is a fairly reasonable assumption that Southampton would have created more chances than us last season. Their strikers were changed about more often than ours and I seem to remember they had a number of injuries to players. Rodriguez and Austin being clear examples. They also lost Tadic and Pelle plus some other major players the seasons before as well as a change in manager. I am saying quite clearly that Long IS NOT the answer to replacing Gray in terms of potential and obviously in valuations also. Long was not first choice target Assombalonga was and clearly if Gray had signed a new contract would anyone be shouting to sell him and buy Long instead, no of course not.

Long is not a bad buy but not as the only striker to replace Gray. We have quite clearly weakened our strike team this season and only Stoke in the bottom half of the table have not improved theirs so far, all the others have strengthened. Are you stating then that buying Long only will have sufficiently strengthened our strike force above all the other teams except Stoke ? I just don't see it myself.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:21 pm

Gray had very little potential and no value at all after the end of 2017-18, because his contract was up and he wasn't signing a new one. So if we get Long on a 2 year contract, or any other forward for that matter, they are bound to have more or the same value.

Gray lost his place to Barnes before the end of last season. I tend to agree with Sean Dyche that he wasn't that good.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:29 pm

Long has more Premier League nous than most of our team combined. He'll win plenty of free kicks (I honestly see set pieces as our most potent weapon this season) up the top end of the pitch for sure. He makes superb runs to stretch defences, far more so than Gray. The only reservation I have about him is him staying onside, he can be very frustrating. I'd love us to get him and Ings

Buxtonclaret · Post by **Buxtonclaret** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:29 pm

Andre did his job.
His contribution to getting us into the Prem can't be underestimated.
Given how we played last year, his goal tally wasn't too bad.

He's a decent, but limited player.
Said on another thread, not worth a great big hoist in pay. Not to us, anyway.

I'd be pretty happy with Long.
Reckon he'd do at least as good a job as Gray did.

Quicknick · Post by **Quicknick** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:38 pm

Concisely put, Buxton. And I agree.

Pearcey · Post by **Pearcey** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:09 pm

I'd be happy with Long. Would be good to see the Vong partnership. The Bong one would be ok too.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:15 pm

Buxtonclaret wrote:Andre did his job.
His contribution to getting us into the Prem can't be underestimated.
Given how we played last year, his goal tally wasn't too bad.

He's a decent, but limited player.
Said on another thread, not worth a great big hoist in pay. Not to us, anyway.

I'd be pretty happy with Long.
Reckon he'd do at least as good a job as Gray did.

I agree with all that, until the final sentence as I think he's possibly even more limited than Gray. At Burnley you will get meagre service as we spend long periods without the ball and we need someone who can turn those scraps into something. Not sure Long is that man.

Safron · Post by **Safron** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:51 pm

This season hopefully playing 451 with defour central i think we will have much more ball retension and think with longs pace would suit the system perfectly utc

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:00 pm

LaLigaClaret wrote:No the point I was making is that Gray probably scored a higher percentage of chances created for him than Long did with his thus making Gray more likely to score more than Long. Selling Gray for £18.5m was good financial business given he was in his last year of his contract but replacing him with Long is not the great solution a lot seem to think it is. Just on another note if Long was such a great idea then why did we try to sign Assombalonga ahead of him ?

It's only relevant in terms of chances created for, and scored or missed by the individual players who you are comparing.

Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long

Re: Shane Long