Gay and a claret? me too!

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:32 pm

AliceDevine wrote:Could have. But benefit of the doubt could have also seen that I've said I'm a bi woman elsewhere.

But thanks, you're correct, gender neutral would have been a better option.

You and Damo are joking aren't you? If a poster on this messageboard uses the name Alice I think it's reasonable that they can be referred to as she/her unless known otherwise.

AliceDevine · Post by **AliceDevine** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:36 pm

dsr wrote:Or indeed a "whites only" group. One of the problems with clubs restricted to certain groups is that it's very hard to prevent other, more offensively minded, groups springing up. If the existing supporters' clubs are full of anti-gay, bi, trans, queer, les, and plus people, then there's a bigger problem than can be solved by forming a new club. Wouldn't it be more use for Alice and a few of her friends (I would always tend to assume people called Alice are female, which in this case is apparently correct) to join an existing club, not to proselytize, but just to be there as people?

Define proselytize? Because there are a lot of people that see a gay couple holding hands or a transgender person on their initial stages of transition as 'pushing an agenda'.

I've only mentioned the issues of gay men and women. Can you even begin to imagine how it must feel, how intimidating it would be to turn up one week as Dave and the next as Diane? (Or Rachel to Robert).

People transitioning have to live as the gender they wish to be asigned for (I think) 12 months before they even start hormone therapy. How tolerant are the people sat round you?

Wanting to live your life in freedom without harassment isnt pushing an agenda. Wanting the same privilege as awarded to straight people isn't prostelizing but I can tell you now a lot of people think that it is.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:36 pm

I don't see the point in having segregated groups in any walk of life. That's my final thought on this

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:37 pm

Rileybobs wrote:You and Damo are joking aren't you? If a poster on this messageboard uses the name Alice I think it's reasonable that they can be referred to as she/her unless known otherwise.

Alice Cooper?

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:38 pm

dsr wrote:Or indeed a "whites only" group. One of the problems with clubs restricted to certain groups is that it's very hard to prevent other, more offensively minded, groups springing up. If the existing supporters' clubs are full of anti-gay, bi, trans, queer, les, and plus people, then there's a bigger problem than can be solved by forming a new club. Wouldn't it be more use for Alice and a few of her friends (I would always tend to assume people called Alice are female, which in this case is apparently correct) to join an existing club, not to proselytize, but just to be there as people?

However if we have LGBTQ fans who wish to have a group for those who self identify then why shouldn't they? By your logic universities shouldn't have LGBTQ groups because those students are catered for by the over arching umbrella of the NUS.

If we had a group of anti-LGBTQ fans set up in response then I'd be the first one to report it to the police as being discriminatory (equal right legislation for a start, closely followed by hate crime!) and I'd be on the front line protesting against their views (whilst making it perfectly clear that despite me thinking they're absolute cockwombles undeserving of air to breath they're allowed to think that- but not say it.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:38 pm

It's pretty difficult not to be a gay Claret these days.

AliceDevine · Post by **AliceDevine** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:43 pm

Rileybobs wrote:You and Damo are joking aren't you? If a poster on this messageboard uses the name Alice I think it's reasonable that they can be referred to as she/her unless known otherwise.

Given its a thread about a potential LGBTQ supporters group it wouldn't be a far stretch to think that I could identify as gender queer, for some people that doesn't always mean changing their name to something more androgynous.

Is it that difficult to shift your language from 'Should the OP discuss her' to 'should the OP discuss their' it's 2 letters longer that is all.

(Personally I'm fine with female pronouns, but I personally never try to make assumptions)

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:45 pm

AliceDevine wrote:Define proselytize? Because there are a lot of people that see a gay couple holding hands or a transgender person on their initial stages of transition as 'pushing an agenda'.

I've only mentioned the issues of gay men and women. Can you even begin to imagine how it must feel, how intimidating it would be to turn up one week as Dave and the next as Diane? (Or Rachel to Robert).

People transitioning have to live as the gender they wish to be asigned for (I think) 12 months before they even start hormone therapy. How tolerant are the people sat round you?

Wanting to live your life in freedom without harassment isnt pushing an agenda. Wanting the same privilege as awarded to straight people isn't prostelizing but I can tell you now a lot of people think that it is.

proselytize - convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

The point being, your and similar people would not be in a supporters' club specifically because you thought any sort of sexual identity was relevant. You would be just there, a person like all the other people. Your sexuality would be irrelevant. That's my definition of freedom from harrassment.

Are you saying the current supporters' clubs aren't like that?

AliceDevine · Post by **AliceDevine** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:45 pm

Damo wrote:Alice Cooper?

You know. I know a few men called Leslie and a Vivien but I was racking my brain about a male Alice. Thanks. You're right. I could have been Alice Cooper, or a male fan of. Or just a guy called Alice.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:47 pm

I know two different blokes called Jody.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:48 pm

AliceDevine wrote:You know. I know a few men called Leslie and a Vivien but I was racking my brain about a male Alice. Thanks. You're right. I could have been Alice Cooper, or a male fan of. Or just a guy called Alice.

A guy called Alice, ohhhhhhhhhhhh yeah!

Sorry I got The Jam vibes from that last line.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:50 pm

Damo wrote:Alice Cooper?

How do you know Alice Cooper is a man? You shouldn't assume.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:51 pm

AliceDevine wrote:Given its a thread about a potential LGBTQ supporters group it wouldn't be a far stretch to think that I could identify as gender queer, for some people that doesn't always mean changing their name to something more androgynous.

Is it that difficult to shift your language from 'Should the OP discuss her' to 'should the OP discuss their' it's 2 letters longer that is all.

(Personally I'm fine with female pronouns, but I personally never try to make assumptions)

True enough - but on the other hand, there are an awful lot of women who would be quite offended if you didn't assume they were women. Until the time comes when the world accepts there is literally no difference between a man and a woman and labels become irrelevant, then someone is going to have to either be offended, or choose not to be offended, by a pronoun.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:52 pm

AliceDevine wrote: Is it that difficult to shift your language from 'Should the OP discuss her' to 'should the OP discuss their' it's 2 letters longer that is all.

It's not difficult. Just unnecessary.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:55 pm

dsr wrote:proselytize - convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another...

So, if I have read your posts correctly, you're either suggesting that the OP should not attempt to "convert" homophobes into decent human beings, or implying that they might have tried to "convert" straight people into becoming gay. Neither is a good look for you to be honest.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:55 pm

You can either want us to not give a **** about your gender, or you can want us to care so much that we alter our pronouns when talking about everyone. Pick one.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:57 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You can either want us to not give a **** about your gender, or you can want us to care so much that we alter our pronouns when talking about everyone. Pick one.

Definitely think the first one is the way to go here.

andyh · Post by **andyh** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:58 pm

I can see no NEED but equally can't see anything to object about.

Not as if that group would impact me in any way. So I wish you all the best.

I think it refreshing that most of the objections have been of the attitude that it is not worth making a distinction. No one is objecting on the grounds that you are not welcome.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:07 pm

Greenmile wrote:So, if I have read your posts correctly, you're either suggesting that the OP should not attempt to "convert" homophobes into decent human beings, or implying that they might have tried to "convert" straight people into becoming gay. Neither is a good look for you to be honest.

No, you're not reading it right. What I am saying is that lgbtq+ people can join supporters' clubs just as themselves, with their sexual identity no more relevant that anyone else in the supporters' club. Just as people, so that other people can see they are just people. A special lgbtq+ club suggests that there's something different about them, and there isn't - at least, not with any relevance to football.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:08 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You can either want us to not give a **** about your gender, or you can want us to care so much that we alter our pronouns when talking about everyone. Pick one.

Can you not do both?

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:09 pm

Although I suppport LGBT rights, I do get confused by some of the trans community arguements.

It's not something that affects me so never have to really think about it much.

It would be funny if Trump decided he identified himself as female and did nothing to change his appearance. some of those that must hate him the most would have to accept he's the first female president

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:14 pm

dsr wrote:No, you're not reading it right. What I am saying is that lgbtq+ people can join supporters' clubs just as themselves, with their sexual identity no more relevant that anyone else in the supporters' club. Just as people, so that other people can see they are just people. A special lgbtq+ club suggests that there's something different about them, and there isn't - at least, not with any relevance to football.

Here's the bit I must be reading wrong - perhaps you could clarify what you meant for me?

dsr wrote:Wouldn't it be more use for Alice and a few of her friends to join an existing club, not to proselytize, but just to be there as people?

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:19 pm

"Is it that difficult to shift your language from 'Should the OP discuss her' to 'should the OP discuss their' it's 2 letters longer that is all."

I'm afraid there you have the issue in a nutshell. Why on earth do you think it's wrong ?

I wish that was all I had to bother about, for crying out loud. Get yourself something to occupy your mind ffs.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:24 pm

Damo wrote:Can you not do both?

Can i both not care and care a lot? At the same time? No. And if i could i'd feel like i was culturally appropriating cognative dissonance from the right-wing.

I don't even care enough to remember my friends' name half the time. Imagine how little i give a **** about their gender.

pushpinpussy · Post by **pushpinpussy** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:28 pm

im hetrosexual. lets start a thread about it. who cares.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:29 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:
I don't even care enough to remember my friends' name half the time. Imagine how little i give a **** about their gender.

You have friends?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:34 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:You have friends?

That hurts me where my feelings should be.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:36 pm

pushpinpussy wrote:im hetrosexual. lets start a thread about it. who cares.

Were you born heterosexual but at birth doctors removed a letter and added it to your chromosomes?

CBT · Post by **CBT** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:38 pm

AliceDevine wrote:You know. I know a few men called Leslie and a Vivien but I was racking my brain about a male Alice. Thanks. You're right. I could have been Alice Cooper, or a male fan of. Or just a guy called Alice.

Sorry to pour cold water on this but Alice Cooper was the name of the band not the lead singer

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:42 pm

CBT wrote:Sorry to pour cold water on this but Alice Cooper was the name of the band not the lead singer

No it isn't

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:43 pm

It was both.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:43 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Can i both not care and care a lot? At the same time? No. And if i could i'd feel like i was culturally appropriating cognative dissonance from the right-wing.

I don't even care enough to remember my friends' name half the time. Imagine how little i give a **** about their gender.

Nazi

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:44 pm

Actual name Vincent.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:45 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:Actual name Vincent.

Actually pays for the rights to be called Alice Cooper, so he is Alice Cooper

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:49 pm

I'm trying hard to remember the last time I saw a transitioning gender person being abused at a football match.

Bertiebeehead · Post by **Bertiebeehead** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:50 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Were you born heterosexual but at birth doctors removed a letter and added it to your chromosomes?

They removed two from mine, I'm herosexual.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:51 pm

I'm ambidextrous can I start my own group ?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:52 pm

Blackrod wrote:I'm trying hard to remember the last time I saw a transitioning gender person being abused at a football match.

When was the last time you saw one at a football match?

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:56 pm

joey13 wrote:Actually pays for the rights to be called Alice Cooper, so he is Alice Cooper

In much the same way that I can buy a Lord title and be Lord ClaretEngineer.

My real name still stands.

CBT · Post by **CBT** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:00 pm

Stands corrected ish

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:08 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:In much the same way that I can buy a Lord title and be Lord ClaretEngineer.

My real name still stands.

What's your really name Alice Cooper ?

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:09 pm

There isn't a group for us left handers, is there ?

We are persecuted, victimised and disadvantaged
beyond belief.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:10 pm

Funkydrummer wrote:There isn't a group for us left handers, is there ?

We are persecuted, victimised and disadvantaged
beyond belief.

Shush, you're cack handed, deal with it.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:15 pm

joey13 wrote:What's your really name Alice Cooper ?

I don't know where we're going with this? I've forgotten the point we are supposed to be debating

Peace to all fellow Clarets

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:20 pm

Funkydrummer wrote:There isn't a group for us left handers, is there ?

We are persecuted, victimised and disadvantaged
beyond belief.

You're lucky being ambidextrous I can't even agree with myself

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:43 pm

How about Gingers?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:45 pm

AliceDevine wrote:Personally I'm bi-sexual and I can't be the only gay in the village!

After a couple of comments that were made on a different thread I'm going to conduct some market research about the viability of setting up an LGBTQ+ supporters club. It's just research at the moment and as much as I'd love there to be one right now, this moment, I'm not sure a supporters club of just one would be much fun.

I have set up a very short simple survey, please take time to fill it in.

Please remember I'm an actual human, with feelings, be nice and don't fill it in with anything horrible or homophobic.

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/K26RKVN" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi Alice, yes, I've completed the survey. You've got my support to set up a LGBTQ+ supporters group.

Two of the threads where these issues were discussed:

"Gareth Thomas: Hate in the beautiful game" and "Homophobic chanting at Stamford Bridge."

Maybe the Burnley FC Supporters Liaison Officer can give some support in setting up the group. I can only imagine it is good for many reasons for Burnley FC to be supporting this initiative.

UTC

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:54 pm

A couple of observations : Some minority groups seem quite thick skinned. Remarks about gingers, fat people or bald people are often ignored by these groups at a match.

There are more fans from ethnic origins than ever before and often in mixed groups. I'm
not aware of any separate supporters group either.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:56 pm

pushpinpussy wrote:im hetrosexual. lets start a thread about it. who cares.

There's so many people 'not caring' about this suggestion it's up to three pages of responses in four hours. Proof, if it were needed, that lots of people still seem to have issues with LGBTQ and that a supporters group is a good idea.

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:03 pm

joey13 wrote:You're lucky being ambidextrous I can't even agree with myself

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.