Cantalunya Independence Vote

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:45 pm

Right_winger wrote:Nice twist, you are forgetting this vote is an illegal one.

General Franco would have reacted in exactly the same way as the current government is doing. It's only 42 years since he died, and the Catalans didn't like Franco; so trying to be like Franco isn't going to do the Spanish government any favours. Sending police in to suppress a vote by force is a decided characteristic of fascism.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:45 pm

Right_winger wrote:Nice twist, you are forgetting this vote is an illegal one.

So you're OK with a government criminalising the expression of a dissenting opinion? You're OK with the government violently suppressing the peaceful expression of an opinion? Because that's all this vote is, the expression of an opinion that the Spanish government doesn't like.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:53 pm

Sidney1st wrote:If its an illegal vote, why would a country allow it to happen?
If they rolled over then as someone else mentioned, the Basques could do the same etc.

Violence shouldn't be happening, just to clear that up, but if the vote is illegal the ruling government has every right to stop it happening.

Do you understand what a vote is? It's the expression of an opinion. Are you OK with a government making it illegal to express an opinion in this way? If this was an online vote would you be OK with state police entering people's homes in order to seize computer equipment to stop them from voting? Because that's no different to making it illegal for people to enter a public place and cast a vote.

This is a blatant government suppression of opinion and i'm only a little suprise that some of you are OK with that. I'll remember this "well it's illegal so tough luck" attitude the next time any of you are complaining about the UK becoming a police state.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:54 pm

Is the vote illegal?
If it is, does that allow the ruling government the right to take steps to prevent it?

If it's a yes to both, what's the issue?
The only real issue I see is the violence that's happening and should be stopped.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:56 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Do you understand what a vote is? It's the expression of an opinion. Are you OK with a government making it illegal to express an opinion in this way? If this was an online vote would you be OK with state police entering people's homes in order to seize computer equipment to stop them from voting? Because that's no different to making it illegal for people to enter a public place and cast a vote.

This is a blatant government suppression of opinion and i'm only a little suprise that some of you are OK with that. I'll remember this "well it's illegal so tough luck" attitude the next time any of you are complaining about the UK becoming a police state.

Do you need a lift to get on that high horse?

If it's an illegal vote the government is allowed and probably obliged to take steps to stop it.
The violence is uncalled for though.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:59 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Is the vote illegal?
If it is, does that allow the ruling government the right to take steps to prevent it?

If it's a yes to both, what's the issue?
The only real issue I see is the violence that's happening and should be stopped.

It was illegal to express certain opinions in Germany in the late 30s. The ruling government took steps to prevent the expression of those opinions. So i guess because it was illegal then i guess we should be looking back and wondering "what's the issue?"

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:01 pm

Well you've played that card early, although not unsurprising I suppose.

No point discussing it any further if you're going to resort to that one.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:04 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Do you need a lift to get on that high horse?

If it's an illegal vote the government is allowed and probably obliged to take steps to stop it.
The violence is uncalled for though.

You don't have an adequate appreciation of how fascistic it is to suppress dissenting opinions in this way. We're not just talking about people being beaten for trying to attend a ballot box. People have been arrested and printing companies raided to make sure they weren't printing ballot papers. CEOs arrested. Senior figures in the catalonia government arrested. This is legitimate fascism you're expressing acceptance of.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:06 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I want a world where thinking like yours is roundly ridiculed as fascistic nonsense. Explain to me why it should be a crime for me to attend a voting booth and cast a ballot just because the government at the time don't like the idea that i'm voting on the issue?

Imagine there wasn't the decision to have the EU referendum and UKIP/Farage decided to hold an unnoficial vote instead. How comfortable would you be with the government acting like the Gestapo to prevent you from casting your unnofficial ballot? You'd probably be a little bit delightedover such a propoganda coup, but you know as well as i do that your argument would be about how anti-democratic the government was acting.

Basically you have called yourself a hypocrite but your too hung up on climbing up onto that high horse for you to notice. I mean basically your all for people expressing their opinions but you'd like one's you don't agree with roundly criticised. FTR I don't hold facist views ( facism is actually very close to your beloved socialism/communism)

Anyway the facts of the matter are this vote is an illegal vote as the Spanish government has ruled it so and under the Spanish constitution they have the right to do so. End of the matter.

Not that it matters but if there wasn't a decision to hold the EU referendum then that would have been it, UKIP would have taken a lot from the tories and continued to pressure, but there certainly wouldn't have been illegal votes etc. Nice try.

Your a bit like a come forward boxer applying pressure, relatively effective when allowed to continue with your carry on but when heat starts coming the other way your Iike a lost puppy.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:08 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Well you've played that card early, although not unsurprising I suppose.

No point discussing it any further if you're going to resort to that one.

You expressed the view that if it's illegal to express a certain opinion then it's OK for the government to take steps to prevent it. I offered an example or that kind of thing from the past and now you're throwing your toys our of the pram?

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:10 pm

i found 'homage to catalonia' to be orwell's worst novel.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:12 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote: You expressed the view that if it's illegal to express a certain opinion then it's OK for the government to take steps to prevent it. I offered an example or that kind of thing from the past and now you're throwing your toys our of the pram?

No you really need to stop with your alternative information.

The view expressed was that the vote is illegal, and guess what it is, or do you wish to argue that one aswell?

Just awaiting on certain fashionable labels coming out now to complete the bingo card. There's even a bonus point if you can sneak homophobic in there too.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:14 pm

Right_winger wrote:Basically you have called yourself a hypocrite but your too hung up on climbing up onto that high horse for you to notice. I mean basically your all for people expressing their opinions but you'd like one's you don't agree with roundly criticised.

Err. Yes, you dumb ****. Criticism is not suppression. It's telling that you don't think they're different.

FTR I don't hold facist views ( facism is actually very close to your beloved socialism/communism)

And yet you choose to share so many fascistic views. Odd, eh?

Anyway the facts of the matter are this vote is an illegal vote as the Spanish government has ruled it so and under the Spanish constitution they have the right to do so. End of the matter.

Not that it matters but if there wasn't a decision to hold the EU referendum then that would have been it, UKIP would have taken a lot from the tories and continued to pressure, but there certainly wouldn't have been illegal votes etc. Nice try.

Your a bit like a come forward boxer applying pressure, relatively effective when allowed to continue with your carry on but when heat starts coming the other way your Iike a lost puppy.

Just out of curiosity, back in what i'm sure you call "the good old days" when gay marriage was illegal would you have supported government forces violently breaking up gay weddings? I mean, the marriage wouldn't be recognised by law and therefore would be illegal. So under your way of "thinking" it should have been OK for the police to use force to prevent any wedding ceremonies. You know, just like they should be allowed to use force to prevent people voting in a referendum that isn't recognised by law.

I'd like the question answered. I'd like to understand the extent to what you believe the government should be allowed to interfere in the lives of its citizens.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:19 pm

Nope, just cba with you today.

The Spanish government is enforcing its laws and you don't want them too, or don't agree with it.
You'll even drag Germany under Hitler into this discussion because you've decided its relevant.

If people are breaking the law then why wouldn't they be arrested?
Even CEO's can be arrested if they're knowingly breaking the law.

The Catalans want independence, no issue with that at all, its clearly important to them and their identity.
They will eventually get it, they've been getting more and more rights to govern themselves as time has gone by and with more time I think they would've been allowed a referendum like Scotland had.

It's been part of Spain for a long time now hasn't it, on and off?
Breaking away takes time and patience, much like it will for Scotland, who I also suspect will get independence at some point not long after Brexit is done with.

I'm not advocating violence, nor am I saying they shouldn't be allowed to vote at some point etc.
If they're just going to ignore the ruling government and vote anyway then it shouldn't be a surprise that there have been arrests and a heavy police presence.

The violence shouldn't be happening though, just to make sure you understand my view on it.

That's the last I'll say on it, this time I mean it, I've picked up all of my toys that you think I threw.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:20 pm

Right_winger wrote:Basically you have called yourself a hypocrite but your too hung up on climbing up onto that high horse for you to notice. I mean basically your all for people expressing their opinions but you'd like one's you don't agree with roundly criticised. FTR I don't hold facist views ( facism is actually very close to your beloved socialism/communism)

Anyway the facts of the matter are this vote is an illegal vote as the Spanish government has ruled it so and under the Spanish constitution they have the right to do so. End of the matter.

Not that it matters but if there wasn't a decision to hold the EU referendum then that would have been it, UKIP would have taken a lot from the tories and continued to pressure, but there certainly wouldn't have been illegal votes etc. Nice try.

Your a bit like a come forward boxer applying pressure, relatively effective when allowed to continue with your carry on but when heat starts coming the other way your Iike a lost puppy.

I live in Catalunya and am married to a Catalan/Spanish lass, my little lad speaks English, Spanish and Catalan.

My mother-in-law was kicked in the face today leaving a restaurant where we'd been celebrating some family birthdays.

If nothing had happened I wouldn't have bothered coming on here to talk about, what's your excuse?

Honestly, why are you always on here talking about things you have absolutely no idea about??

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:23 pm

I hope your mother in law is ok and you and your family are safe.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:29 pm

Right_winger wrote:The view expressed was that the vote is illegal, and guess what it is, or do you wish to argue that one aswell?

This vote has often been described as "illegal", but what exactly does this mean? Does it mean that the vote has no legal force, rather like the Gibraltar one a couple of years back that the UK government didn't recognise? Or does it mean that it is a genuine criminal offence for a semi-autonomous region to set up polling stations and ask its constituents what they think?

If it is a genuine criminal offence, then it shouldn't be. That's a very significant part of what fascism is - suppression of views that the government doesn't like.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:30 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Nope, just cba with you today.

The Spanish government is enforcing its laws and you don't want them too, or don't agree with it.
You'll even drag Germany under Hitler into this discussion because you've decided its relevant.

If people are breaking the law then why wouldn't they be arrested?
Even CEO's can be arrested if they're knowingly breaking the law.

The Catalans want independence, no issue with that at all, its clearly important to them and their identity.
They will eventually get it, they've been getting more and more rights to govern themselves as time has gone by and with more time I think they would've been allowed a referendum like Scotland had.

It's been part of Spain for a long time now hasn't it, on and off?
Breaking away takes time and patience, much like it will for Scotland, who I also suspect will get independence at some point not long after Brexit is done with.

I'm not advocating violence, nor am I saying they shouldn't be allowed to vote at some point etc.
If they're just going to ignore the ruling government and vote anyway then it shouldn't be a surprise that there have been arrests and a heavy police presence.

The violence shouldn't be happening though, just to make sure you understand my view on it.

That's the last I'll say on it, this time I mean it, I've picked up all of my toys that you think I threw.

It amazes me how comfortable you are with what is so obviously fascism in practice, just because it is the law. It's frightening because what if our government starts doing this kind of ****? When the UK government starts making it illegal to express certain opinions are you going to just accept it?

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:30 pm

The police are cracking skulls in an attempt to stop democracy. It's almost like Venezuela.
Disgusting show of government dominance. Give them their vote and deal with the legalities later

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:32 pm

yTib wrote:i found 'homage to catalonia' to be orwell's worst novel.

It isn't a novel.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It amazes me how comfortable you are with what is so obviously fascism in practice, just because it is the law. It's frightening because what if our government starts doing this kind of ****? When the UK government starts making it illegal to express certain opinions are you going to just accept it?

This could be a first, but I agree with charlie

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:33 pm

Damo wrote:This could be a first, but I agree with charlie

You're not the only one. Only in my case, it's the second time I've agreed with him.

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:35 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:It isn't a novel.

no, not quite. the political sections were especially taxing.

smart arse.

Bobzuruncle · Post by **Bobzuruncle** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:37 pm

It’s quite sad really because by my understanding (I travel to and work in catalonia almost every week) there was only a minority supporting independence , they just wanted the right to vote, but this display (from before today) by the spanish authorities has hardened people and made a yes vote inevitable.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:39 pm

Les imatges de la policia intervenint al carrer, i als col·legis electorals són molt dures.

Aquestes imatges em trenquen l'ànima.

Ara el mal ja està fet.

Catalunya viu una gran mobilització, pots compartir els motius polítics o no, però la violència mai és la solució davant d'una mobilització pacífica.

Translation:

The images of the police intervening in the street and the polling stations are very harsh.

These images break my soul.

Now evil is already done.

Catalonia is experiencing a great mobilization, you can share political motives or not, but violence is never the solution to peaceful mobilization.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:47 pm

I mean, i suppose they provoked it with their aggressive sitting.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/914518551700164609" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:18 pm

dsr wrote:This vote has often been described as "illegal", but what exactly does this mean? Does it mean that the vote has no legal force, rather like the Gibraltar one a couple of years back that the UK government didn't recognise? Or does it mean that it is a genuine criminal offence for a semi-autonomous region to set up polling stations and ask its constituents what they think?

If it is a genuine criminal offence, then it shouldn't be. That's a very significant part of what fascism is - suppression of views that the government doesn't like.

It's illegal because that semi-autonomous region has taken on itself to hold a referendum which its leaders have said will be binding regardless of the settled written constitution which prohibits it, as decided by the highest court, which Catalonia is also subject to.

If you want independence in that circumstance, particularly in a country where, whatever beefs they may have, the section seeking independence is not being significantly maltreated, you have two options; play the long game and continue to push for a mutual resolution or ignore the law. The Catalan leadership have chosen the latter. Fine. Expect bloodshed. That's what happens in revolutions.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:33 pm

I'm proud of the people of Catalonia. Spain has not been willing to negotiate with Catalonia and has treated the region and its people with disdain. Now the people have taken to the streets and voted peacefully because they have provided no other option. Just look at the contrast as people calmly cast their ballots as the Spanish police (Guardia Civil) close in with batons, rubber bullets and tear gas. Regardless, they've failed. They've only served to increase the anti-Spain/pro-independence sentiment. Catalonia will be independent one way or another. There's no going back from this.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:32 pm

Wow, Sidney's right arm must be hurting from all that sieg heiling, as he defends pure fascism.

You've got it wrong here Sidney, and you're too much of an argumentative internet addict to see that.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:39 pm

I can't win here, I stay off it and I'm still accused of being a ******* nazi when I'm not....

I'm not a facist, never have been, nor will I be so you can just **** off if you're going to label me as such, that applies to anyone who's going try and label me as one.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:50 pm

Bobzuruncle wrote:It’s quite sad really because by my understanding (I travel to and work in catalonia almost every week) there was only a minority supporting independence , they just wanted the right to vote, but this display (from before today) by the spanish authorities has hardened people and made a yes vote inevitable.

The Spanish authorities are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut,bizarre behaviour if they believe in the status quo so much, they shouldn't have to resort to such heavy-handed tactics,whatever the result of today's vote,they will have alienated many people who may have been likely to vote no in normal circumstances.

that in 21st century Europe oppression still exists.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:40 pm

The Catalan people, like all peoples, have the right to self determination.

I agreed with the Scottish independence referendum. The SNP, should accept the result.

The brexit referendum was an expression of self determination. Remoaners should accept the result.

Calling the Catalan referendum "illegal" doesn't mean it's not valid. It's like the brexit result being described as "advisory"

As for these actions being described as "fascistic"-

"a government criminalising the expression of a dissenting opinion?"

"Sending police in to suppress a vote by force"

"does it mean that it is a genuine criminal offence for a semi-autonomous region to set up polling stations and ask its constituents what they think?"

All the above are typical of socialist/communist dictatorships and NOT unique to fascist governments.

Suppressing the Catalan people's voice will guarantee it will get louder.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:43 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:The Catalan people, like all peoples, have the right to self determination.

Trite absolutist nonsense. Define "peoples".

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:02 pm

thatdberight wrote:Trite absolutist nonsense. Define "peoples".

"Trite absolutist nonsense"?

Then argue with the United Nations and their definition of "peoples", which I fully agree with-

The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law. It states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference"

If it's good enough for the UN, it's good enough for me.

And it can absolutely be applied to the people of Catalan and the British people regards brexit.

"Illegal"? "Advisory"? Bol1ox!!!! Let the Peoples voice be heard. And critically listened to, and actioned.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:19 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:"Trite absolutist nonsense"?

Then argue with the United Nations and their definition of "peoples", which I fully agree with-

The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law. It states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference"

If it's good enough for the UN, it's good enough for me.

And it can absolutely be applied to the people of Catalan and the British people regards brexit.

"Illegal"? "Advisory"? Bol1ox!!!! Let the Peoples voice be heard. And critically listened to, and actioned.

Except there isn't actually a definition of "people" there and there is no internationally agreed definition of it. You might at least have checked your definition included, say, a definition.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:34 pm

thatdberight wrote:Except there isn't actually a definition of "people" there and there is no internationally agreed definition of it. You might at least have checked your definition included, say, a definition.

The Catalan people have defined themselves as "a people" as wishing to accept the " principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference"

By stepping forward and defining themselves as separate to the Spanish, who wish to suppress this wish, is, by definition, self determination. Just as long as they do so while respecting equal rights and fair equality of opportunity.

By not stepping forward, they remain Spanish.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:53 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:The Catalan people have defined themselves as "a people" as wishing to accept the " principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference"

By stepping forward and defining themselves as separate to the Spanish, who wish to suppress this wish, is, by definition, self determination. Just as long as they do so while respecting equal rights and fair equality of opportunity.

By not stepping forward, they remain Spanish.

So if "a people" of Viella or Girona or a suburb of Lleida or a street in Tarragona or a house in Balaguer want to secede from this new Catalonian state, are you all right with that? That's in line with your absolutism and recognition of whatever somebody says.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:05 am

thatdberight wrote:So if "a people" of Viella or Girona or a suburb of Lleida or a street in Tarragona or a house in Balaguer want to secede from this new Catalonian state, are you all right with that? That's in line with your absolutism and recognition of whatever somebody says.

Yes I am.

But I live in the real world. It's unlikely.

However,

The same argument could be aimed at islands, classed as Scotland, that may decide they want independence from the "mainland". Let the people decide. If all the above that you've mentioned can survive, practically. Then who are you, or I, or the Spanish, to suppress or dictate that they should not choose autonomy?

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:12 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Yes.

But I live in the real world. It's unlikely.

But.

The same argument could be aimed at islands, classed as Scotland, that may decide they want independence from the "mainland". Let the people decide. If all the above that you've mentioned can survive, practically. Then who are you, or I, or the Spanish, to suppress or dictate that they should not choose autonomy?

Oh, so now there's a "practicality" threshold as well? You, and your friends the UN, didn't mention that before. Are you deciding that or the UN?

Good luck with Brexit because once London gets a whiff of your suggestion you're stuffed. They, along with the other richer parts of the country, will declare independence and opt back in leaving "the North" stuck between two bits of the EU, "the South" and Scotland. That'll be an attractive proposition.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:19 am

thatdberight wrote:Oh, so now there's a "practicality" threshold as well? You, and your friends the UN, didn't mention that before. Are you deciding that or the UN?

Good luck with Brexit because once London gets a whiff of your suggestion you're stuffed. They, along with the other richer parts of the country, will declare independence and opt back in leaving "the North" stuck between two bits of the EU, "the South" and Scotland. That'll be an attractive proposition.

If that's what London/the south east and Scotland decide. So be it.

If what's left is a nation made of east anglia, the East and west Midlands, the South West, the North East and the North West.

I'll happily stick with my "People". I've every confidence in them.

Perhaps, given this is Burnley message board, your in the wrong place?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:24 am

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:29 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:If that's what London/the south east and Scotland decide. So be it.

If what's left is a nation made of east anglia, the East and west Midlands, the South West, the North East and the North West.

I'll happily stick with my "People". I've every confidence in them.

Perhaps, given this is Burnley message board, your in the wrong place?

No, you'll lose many of your major cities as well. You'll be left with Boston, Burnley and Bilston. But you seem happy with that.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:34 am

thatdberight wrote:No, you'll lose many of your major cities as well. You'll be left with Boston, Burnley and Bilston. But you seem happy with that.

No

Greater Manchester voted Leave

As did Birmingham

You're now turning self determination into brexit.

Don't.

And you're very very close to sneering at the town which team you purport to support. Careful now.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:58 am

thatdberight wrote:No, you'll lose many of your major cities as well. You'll be left with Boston, Burnley and Bilston. But you seem happy with that.

Cat got ya tongue !?

You were I full flow there!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:34 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUz2YDo ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:44 am

Just in case anyone made the misake of thinking the the Spanish PM is obviously appalled by the police brutality:

Rajoy said the independence referendum only served to sow divisions. He thanked the Spanish police, saying they acted with "firmness and serenity" in response to the referendum.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lonia-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking at the composition of the Spanish congress maybe this will see the removal of Rajoy. I can't imagine this being resolved peacefully with him remaining in power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Deputies_(Spain)#Composition

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:07 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:You're now turning self determination into brexit. Don't.

You're right, I won't. I was led down that path by some moron who posted about it first, equating the two.

RingoMcCartney wrote:The brexit referendum was an expression of self determination.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:12 am

The police actions on TV look really, really, really bad.

There is a way to deal with civic nationalism, and this certainly isn't it.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:49 am

It's a coup against Europe apparently.

: IMG_20171002_084611.jpg (241.79 KiB) Viewed 3171 times

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:55 am

Ramon Luis Valcarcel is a Spanish MEP from the People's Party, the party that controls Spain's government. He's obviously trying to gin up support from Europe for his party's massive and unjustified over-reaction to some people wanting to have a vote on something.

I don't think he'll find much support for that kind of opinion, but hey, I guess that wouldn't stop you from making this an anti-EU thing.