Cantalunya Independence Vote

ExistentialWanderer · Post by **ExistentialWanderer** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:00 am

I find myself, quite unusually; coming down in support of Imploding Turtle on this one. Illegal in what sense? A nationality which wishes to be free to govern itself and have it's own economy and right to determine itself is being supressed by a regime, which cannot accept the rights of a people who feel they should determine their own future. Legal and binding? I'd like to think so as it is those and those alone who should decide their destiny.
Likewise Scotland had that opportunity. Spain cannot dictate the will of a nationality that doesn't wish to be part of it anymore. To do so is a tyrannical act against a binding vote that overwhelmingly suggests they wish to be independent.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:22 am

I want to vote in a Man of the Match poll for the game yesterday. The poll results aren't going to be recognised in law and thus are illegal. Is Right Winger going to report me to the police so that they can come and remove my computer before i commit this crime?

Please advise.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:26 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I want to vote in a Man of the Match poll for the game yesterday. The poll results aren't going to be recognised in law and thus are illegal. Is Right Winger going to report me to the police so that they can come and remove my computer before i commit this crime?

Please advise.

To deliberately confuse "not recognised in law" and "illegal" won't help your argument. To be fair, it might on here.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:30 am

thatdberight wrote:To deliberately confuse "not recognised in law" and "illegal" won't help your argument. To be fair, it might on here.

I think that's what is happening, but not my me. I'm just mocking those who are.

Edit: but they're not doing it deliberately, of course.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:33 am

ExistentialWanderer wrote:Illegal in what sense?

Illegal in the sense of "against the constitution of the country". It's not that difficult. After it's been repeatedly simply explained, wailing, "in what sense" doesn't make it any more complicated.

ExistentialWanderer wrote:A nationality

Care to define?

ExistentialWanderer wrote:a people

Care to define?

To be clear, I am totally disinterested when it comes to the question of Catalan independence. The anarchy of ill-defined groups of "peoples" being able to independently peel off from their nation states, however, should concern anyone in the absence of an understanding of what the limitations to that are and what structures will replace the status quo.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:44 am

Illegal or not, the people have spoken.

Seeing the way the filth were acting yesterday, I'd seriously be considering taking up arms as a next step... And I don't think I'd be alone.

ExistentialWanderer · Post by **ExistentialWanderer** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:46 am

thatdberight wrote:Illegal in the sense of "against the constitution of the country". It's not that difficult. After it's been repeatedly simply explained, wailing, "in what sense" doesn't make it any more complicated.

Care to define?

Care to define?

To be clear, I am totally disinterested when it comes to the question of Catalan independence. The anarchy of ill-defined groups of "peoples" being able to independently peel off from their nation states, however, should concern anyone in the absence of an understanding of what the limitations to that are and what structures will replace the status quo.

I can certainly define. Spain is a relatively new country. It was only founded as a nation state in the 15th Century. It has been largely dominated by the Romans, Moors, it was a Muslim Caliphate for a number of years. Not mentioning the local tribes and/or localities who have never associated themselves with Spain as a 'nation state'. I don't see any difference whatsoever between this and any other nationality wishing to claim back their territory. You can take it way back in history if you wish. Greece refuses to accept Macedonia as a nation, claiming it is a part of their territory. In fact the Macedon Empire encapsulated Greece and far beyond. It's all a matter of Spain is worried, as Turtle states, the Spanish are scared of losing the wealth and the further break up of the nation. When it actual fact, it's just a combined mix match of 'people's' who are finally getting their opportunity to regain theier identity. Your idea of ill defined is certainly not shared by the populus of those communities who clearly do not associate themselves as ever being Spanish.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:51 am

thatdberight wrote:You're right, I won't. I was led down that path by some moron who posted about it first, equating the two.

I also mentioned Scottish independence as an example of self determination. You ignored that!

You see I'm consistent on self determination. Whether it's Scots independence from the UK. The UK from the EU. Or the Catalans from Spain. All examples of self determination which I support.

You decided to start sneering at my town and getting it utterly wrong on which way large cities like greater Manchester and Birmingham voted regards brexit.

You chose to focus on brexit and it backfired.

I also gave you a definition of self determination. The Catalans have every right to it.

I'm consistent. You're wrong. And there's no need to use personal insults simply cos you've lost the argument.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:01 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:I also mentioned Scottish independence as an example of self determination. You ignored that!

You see I'm consistent on self determination. Whether it's Scots independence from the UK. The UK from the EU. Or the Catalans from Spain. All examples of self determination which I support.

You decided to start sneering at my town and getting it utterly wrong on which way large cities like greater Manchester and Birmingham voted regards brexit.

You chose to focus on brexit and it backfired.

I also gave you a definition of self determination. The Catalans have every right to it.

I'm consistent. You're wrong. And there's no need to use personal insults simply cos you've lost the argument.

Manchester Voted overwhelmingly to remain, 60.4/39.6.

It was all the sh1t little satellite towns which voted to leave, which is in line with thatdberight's suggestion of the Boston, Burnley and Bilston Republic.

Add Wigan, Ashton-under-Lyne, Oldham, Rochdale, Stockport etc to that. Sh1t towns.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:02 am

starting_11 wrote:Illegal or not, the people have spoken.

Seeing the way the filth were acting yesterday, I'd seriously be considering taking up arms as a next step... And I don't think I'd be alone.

No, they've not. Let's not pretend this result is at all legitimate just because we oppose the suppression of the rights of voters. There is no way this referendum was free and fair.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:04 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Manchester Voted overwhelmingly to remain, 60.4/39.6.

It was all the sh1t little satellite towns which voted to leave, which is in line with thatdberight's suggestion of the Boston, Burnley and Bilston Republic.

Add Wigan, Ashton-under-Lyne, Oldham, Rochdale, Stockport etc to that. Sh1t towns.

READ WHAT I WROTE.

GREATER MANCHESTER

GREATER MANCHESTER

GREATER MANCHESTER.

I DID NOT WRITE MANCHESTER.

I knew pendants would be all over it. So pipe down.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:06 am

Sh*t little towns

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:08 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Sh*t little towns

That's you winding your neck in cos you jumped In and didn't read what I put!

Which makes you and tbatdberight WRONG!!!

2 birds. 1 stone!!!

Good effort!

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:11 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:That's you winding your neck in cos you jumped In and didn't read what I put!

Good effort!

Well I did read what you put, and you were saying that cities voted to leave, and within that you were excluding the CITY of Manchester, and going for the wider area of additional sh1t little towns known as Greater Manchester.

Your point was wholly about cities, and you've messed yourself up.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:13 am

: Ringoiswrongagain.png (19.14 KiB) Viewed 3823 times

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:13 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Well I did read what you put, and you were saying that cities voted to leave, and within that you were excluding the CITY of Manchester, and going for the wider area of additional sh1t little towns known as Greater Manchester.

Your point was wholly about cities, and you've messed yourself up.

Put the spade down!!

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:14 am

Take Manchester out of Greater Manchester and there is f*ck all left. Just sh*t little towns.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:16 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:
Ringoiswrongagain.png

Yep! It's there! The word "GREATER"

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:17 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Take Manchester out of Greater Manchester and there is f*ck all left. Just sh*t little towns.

Please you're looking silly fella. Just let it go!

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:17 am

As I said, take Manchester out of Greater Manchester and you're left with nothing. Just sh*t little towns like Rochdale and Oldham.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:19 am

You're thick as f*ck aren't you

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:20 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:As I said, take Manchester out of Greater Manchester and you're left with nothing. Just sh*t little towns like Rochdale and Oldham.

This is hilarious!!!

Hold your hand up and just say, "yeah, actually you're right"

It's not the end of the world

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:21 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:You're thick as f*ck aren't you

Maybe!

But I can write and READ the word "Greater"

Where as you.....

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:23 am

I'm not doing that because you're wrong, as per usual.

thatdberight was saying that you'd lose major cities.

You said we wouldn't, because of Greater Manchester.

Take Manchester out of Greater Manchester and you're left with sh*t little towns, with the major city voting to remain.

thatdberight's post holds, and you're wrong. It's simple.

Embarrassingly for you you're keeping going with it though, because you're so thick you can't break it down. Keep going though, it's pretty amusing to see you being this thick.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:26 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:

Maybe!

But I can write and READ the word "Greater"

Where as you.....

You also called Greater Manchester a city. It isn't. So were you talking about the city of Manchester, or the region of Greater Manchester?

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:27 am

yTib wrote:i found 'homage to catalonia' to be orwell's worst novel.

It's not a novel. It's a journal.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:27 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:I'm not doing that because you're wrong, as per usual.

thatdberight was saying that you'd lose major cities.

You said we wouldn't, because of Greater Manchester.

Take Manchester out of Greater Manchester and you're left with sh*t little towns, with the major city voting to remain.

thatdberight's post holds, and you're wrong. It's simple.

Embarrassingly for you you're keeping going with it though, because you're so thick you can't break it down. Keep going though, it's pretty amusing to see you being this thick.

You're actually shooting yourself in the foot each and every time you quote me sayimg GREATER MANCHESTER!!!

Genius !

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:27 am

WTF are you on about you elbow dribbler

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:28 am

BabylonClaret wrote:It's not a novel. It's a journal.

Ah. So it's fake news.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:30 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:WTF are you on about you elbow dribbler

Elbow dribbler !!!! ?

Calm down and read this.

It tells you how GREATER manchester voted. Which is exactly what I said. EXACTLY.

http://www.gmcceuref.co.uk/how-did-grea ... -vote.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:32 am

I'm not carrying this on. You're embarrassing yourself, there's no need for me to do anything.

You're living proof that you just can't argue with idiots.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:32 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Elbow dribbler !!!! ?

Calm down and read this.

It tells you how GREATER manchester voted. Which is exactly what I said. EXACTLY.

http://www.gmcceuref.co.uk/how-did-grea ... -vote.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So why do you assume Manchester proper cares about what the likes of Wigan and Rochdale think?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:36 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:I'm not carrying this on. You're embarrassing yourself, there's no need for me to do anything.

You're living proof that you just can't argue with idiots.

Final result

Ringo 1. Beehole 0

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:37 am

thatdberight wrote:So why do you assume Manchester proper cares about what the likes of Wigan and Rochdale think?

I'm not assuming anything.

Just proving a point.

The point being greater Manchester voted Leave.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:38 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:I'm not assuming anything.

Just proving a point.

The point being greater Manchester voted Leave.

Manchester voted Remain.

Ha you edited it after missing out the Greater, you sneaky sh*t

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:39 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Manchester voted Remain.

Round and round we !!!

But. And this is the point. I said

"GREATER MANCHESTER"

http://www.gmcceuref.co.uk/how-did-grea ... -vote.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:45 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Manchester voted Remain.

Ha you edited it after missing out the Greater, you sneaky sh*t

Un-be-lievable!!!!!!!!

Do you really really think I could be arsed!!!??

Now you really scraping the bottom of the barrel!!

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:47 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Ah. So it's fake news.

not sure I get that IT?

FWIW I'm fiercely on the side of the Catalans here. They've long had a history of wanting to determine their own affairs - the "Spain" that people seem to think is a state is no more a "state" than Yugoslavia was post WW1 - it's always been a loosely united confederate of principalities where power has shifted around the various houses with effectively Castile winning out in the 17th century. The undercurrent of individual states though has always been there - with Franco finally forcing the modern Spain we now see through the door post Civil war.

Bottom line is that suppressing a vote like this is counter productive and dictatorial. No need to send police in. Simply refuse to recognise the result and then take it further through peaceful negotiation.

COYC73 · Post by **COYC73** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:59 am

Where the hell do the Spanish Government get grown men from willing to happily beat up women and old people....?!?!?! How messed up do you need to be to be able to do that...?!?!? People who were protesting and standing up to them and pushing them back in groups I could understand getting hit.....but they were just going into buildings and randomly targeting people just for being there

I just don't understand what sort of person you have to be, to be willing to bust into a building and randomly beat up defenceless old people and drag women around with their hair and stamp on them......

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:04 am

BabylonClaret wrote:not sure I get that IT?

FWIW I'm fiercely on the side of the Catalans here. They've long had a history of wanting to determine their own affairs - the "Spain" that people seem to think is a state is no more a "state" than Yugoslavia was post WW1 - it's always been a loosely united confederate of principalities where power has shifted around the various houses with effectively Castile winning out in the 17th century. The undercurrent of individual states though has always been there - with Franco finally forcing the modern Spain we now see through the door post Civil war.

Bottom line is that suppressing a vote like this is counter productive and dictatorial. No need to send police in. Simply refuse to recognise the result and then take it further through peaceful negotiation.

You said it was a journal. And as we all know journalism is fake news. It was just a joke. Carry on.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:35 am

BabylonClaret wrote:It's not a novel. It's a journal.

You'll get called a smart arse by ytib if you're not careful.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:46 am

Anyone surprised?

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:40 am

It was a Facebook petition type of mock election like the defeated after Brexit by folk who do not respect democracy.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:43 am

I'm surprised that the Daily Mail printed that, but on reflection I shouldn't be.

SalouClaret · Post by **SalouClaret** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:17 am

Got back from Barcelona this morning and some of the attacks I saw from the Spanish police on my travels through Catalonia were nothing short of disgusting, illegal referendum or not. I'm in shock.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:25 pm

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:54 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Anyone surprised?

Ah, the old cognitive dissonance, one to tick off on Jimmy the hate preachers bingo card.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:57 pm

Perhaps try addressing the point made by the poster you quoted rather than showing a mocked up bingo card mate. Might help with the intelligent political discussion so sorely missing from political threads on here.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:57 pm

I can't help but notice that you haven't refuted his point. Probably because you can't.

Pretty weak defence, andy.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:05 pm

I'm a bit surprised that he uses the term "cognitive dissonance", which (if Wikipedia is correct) means that he thinks the Mail somehow suffers mental discomfort or distress because of its contradictory views. I doubt the Mail as an organisation, or its journalists individually, have any distress that their anti-EU views are in this case contradictory. The cognitive dissonance is not there at all, let alone being deafening.

The inconsistency is there, in spades, but presumably Mr. O'Brien thought that "inconsistency" would be too easy to understand and would not make him sound so clever.