Cantalunya Independence Vote

[Lancasterclaret]

One thing is for sure, and that is if the turnout is 42% then there is no way that is a democratic mandate for anything.

[UpTheBeehole]

One thing is for sure, and that is if the turnout is 42% then there is no way that is a democratic mandate for anything.

The turnout would have been far higher had the Guardia Civil not fired rubber bullets and swung their batons at the electorate.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think the fact that it was illegal by Spanish Law would have stopped a lot of pro-Spain supporters from voting as well, but I take your point.

Still think its really risking all to use it as a case to declare a UDI.

[Imploding Turtle]

I think the fact that it was illegal by Spanish Law would have stopped a lot of pro-Spain supporters from voting as well, but I take your point.

Still think its really risking all to use it as a case to declare a UDI.

I don't think it was illegal for people to turn up an cast a ballot. If it was then i expect there will be thousands of prosecutions for this "crime".

[Lancasterclaret]

Its not, but as the referendum was "illegal" (whatever you views on whether its right or wrong) and would have no basis, then what would be the point of voting?

It wasn't even advisory!

[Imploding Turtle]

Its not, but as the referendum was "illegal" (whatever you views on whether its right or wrong) and would have no basis, then what would be the point of voting?

It wasn't even advisory!

Symbolism. Or to tell the devolved Catalonian government your opinion on the matter. Either way it's wasn't a crime to cast a ballot.

[Lancasterclaret]

Which is not what I meant to say, I meant to say that the referendum was illegal.

I'm not sure that you are in favour of my opinion that 42% turnout shouldn't be used to declare an UDI btw.

I'm not a fan of any referendum that doesn't have at least a majority of all voters voting in it, or its just going to open a huge can of worms.

[Imploding Turtle]

Which is not what I meant to say, I meant to say that the referendum was illegal.

I'm not sure that you are in favour of my opinion that 42% turnout shouldn't be used to declare an UDI btw.

I'm not a fan of any referendum that doesn't have at least a majority of all voters voting in it, or its just going to open a huge can of worms.

Then let this settle your uncertainties.
http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... nd#p526748" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

Cheers IT

[thatdberight]

So they're at an impasse. The ballot is illegal. The Madrid government is entitled to enforce the law. Those who are wishing to express their view in the illegal ballot are colluding in that illegality. By definition, those who respect the current laws and judicial processes in Spain are very unlikely to get involved. Therefore, they may be able to, by abstention, thwart the independence vote (many of those who are pro self-determination were also supportive of a high threshold for such a significant change when it came to Brexit - and that was a much less fundamental change).
The Catalan leaders are therefore, it seems, happy to secede unilaterally. They believe the oppression they're facing justifies this. I don't live there. I can't tell. But they don't look oppressed to anything like enough to merit this. But so be it. Their choice. But they can't be surprised when Spain reacts with every tool available both judicial and force to counter them. That's how revolutions work.

[Rowls]

This is what happens when you mix strong identity politics with massive youth unemployment.

[Imploding Turtle]

Oh yeah. Whining about "identity politics" is another one. Often while criticising people with a certain identity.

[Imploding Turtle]

So they're at an impasse. The ballot is illegal. The Madrid government is entitled to enforce the law. Those who are wishing to express their view in the illegal ballot are colluding in that illegality. By definition, those who respect the current laws and judicial processes in Spain are very unlikely to get involved. Therefore, they may be able to, by abstention, thwart the independence vote (many of those who are pro self-determination were also supportive of a high threshold for such a significant change when it came to Brexit - and that was a much less fundamental change).
The Catalan leaders are therefore, it seems, happy to secede unilaterally. They believe the oppression they're facing justifies this. I don't live there. I can't tell. But they don't look oppressed to anything like enough to merit this. But so be it. Their choice. But they can't be surprised when Spain reacts with every tool available both judicial and force to counter them. That's how revolutions work.

But you've seen the images and videos of people being beaten by the police for trying to do something that is perfectly legal; cast a ballot. You know that the referendum is illegal in the sense that it goesn't carry legal force, but that participating in it isn't a crime. Yet people still got beaten senseless by the Spanish police anyway.

What would the Spanish authorities have to do to oppress the Catalans enough to merit a declaration of independence?

[thatdberight]

What would the Spanish authorities have to do to oppress the Catalans enough to merit a declaration of independence?

A lot more. I'd know it when I saw it but if you choose to get involved in an illegal attempt to secede, whether using guns or ballot papers, it's going to kick off. As I say, I'm disinterested in the underlying debate - this is just logic.

[Falcon]

When people are saying 'illegal' does it mean that 'it is illegal to hold the ballot' or 'the ballot means nothing legally' as IT has suggested?

[thatdberight]

When people are saying 'illegal' does it mean that 'it is illegal to hold the ballot' or 'the ballot means nothing legally' as IT has suggested?

Yes, many commentators have been trying to make it sound like the Spanish government are trying to stop people having a chat with their mates down the tapas bar.

That's not the case. The ballot was phrased as a referendum which, if voted for, would lead to secession. The Spanish constitution refers to the indivisibility of the nation. It's a written constitution. The highest court in Spain, which has jurisdiction over Catalonia as well in such matters, declared the ballot illegal. Not "a bad idea". Not " unlikely to be accepted by Madrid". Not "a waste of time".

Illegal.

[UpTheBeehole]

This is what happens when you mix strong identity politics with massive youth unemployment.

Ah, I see you're one of those right-tards who believe that whole Spanish Youth Unemployment myth spread by the right.

I pulled that to pieces a few months ago, and the thread is here:

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... nt#p377734

Basically the statistics in Spain class 15 year old students as unemployed, because they don't have a job. Of course they don't have a job, they're students. That goes for a 16 year old student, 17, 18, 19, 20 21 year old students.

Of course they're not unemployed, they're in full time education.

[Imploding Turtle]

Yes, many commentators have been trying to make it sound like the Spanish government are trying to stop people having a chat with their mates down the tapas bar.

That's not the case. The ballot was phrased as a referendum which, if voted for, would lead to secession. The Spanish constitution refers to the indivisibility of the nation. It's a written constitution. The highest court in Spain, which has jurisdiction over Catalonia as well in such matters, declared the ballot illegal. Not "a bad idea". Not " unlikely to be accepted by Madrid". Not "a waste of time".

Illegal.

So the referendum was unconstitutional and illegal in the sense that the result doesn't carry the weight of law, but it wasn't illegal to actually participate in it by voting.

And the way you'll know this to be accurate is that no one will be prosecuted for taking part in the referendum by voting.

[Sidney1st]

So basically the Spanish government were well within their rights to stop the vote because it was an illegal vote.
It was the excessively aggressive manner in which they did it that we all agree was abhorrent?

Glad we finally got there

[Rowls]

Ah, I see you're one of those right-tards who believe that whole Spanish Youth Unemployment myth spread by the right.
I pulled that to pieces a few months ago, and the thread is here:
http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... nt#p377734
Basically the statistics in Spain class 15 year old students as unemployed, because they don't have a job. Of course they don't have a job, they're students. That goes for a 16 year old student, 17, 18, 19, 20 21 year old students.
Of course they're not unemployed, they're in full time education.

Paul Waine appears to taken your assertion to task in that thread.

[Right_winger]

Some people never give it a rest and will argue on the slightest detail thinking it somehow makes their larger viewpoint relevant.

In a nutshell the referendum was illegal, it was being pushed by the Catalan local govt, to use as a tool for pushing through what they want.

If there is to be a UDI and subsequent civil war then it's the Catalan local govt responsible for it all.

[thatdberight]

So the referendum was unconstitutional and illegal in the sense that the result doesn't carry the weight of law, but it wasn't illegal to actually participate in it by voting.

And the way you'll know this to be accurate is that no one will be prosecuted for taking part in the referendum by voting.

No. You still don't want to get it. It was illegal in the sense of it being illegal. Just like stealing isn't "illegal in the sense of ownership doesn't actually transfer". Stealing is illegal per se.

I have no idea, and I suspect neither have you, whether participation in the illegal vote was itself an illegal act. Failure to prosecute doesn't mean that there was no act which was illegal. The root cause is much more productive to prosecute and I'm sure that's what the Spanish government is considering.

[Imploding Turtle]

So basically the Spanish government were well within their rights to stop the vote because it was an illegal vote.
It was the excessively aggressive manner in which they did it that we all agree was abhorrent?

Glad we finally got there

So are you're saying that those who voted commited a crime? Because that's the implication of the Spanish government being within their rights to prevent people voting - if voting would be a crime.

[UpTheBeehole]

Paul Waine appears to taken your assertion to task in that thread.

But he was wrong, hence me referring back to the link with an explanation.

[Rowls]

Ah, I see you're one of those right-tards who believe that whole Spanish Youth Unemployment myth spread by the right.

I pulled that to pieces a few months ago....

Yes I've looked into it and you didn't "pull it to pieces" and unemployment in Spain is massively high and unemployment amongst Spanish youth is even higher.

[Imploding Turtle]

No. You still don't want to get it. It was illegal in the sense of it being illegal. Just like stealing isn't "illegal in the sense of ownership doesn't actually transfer". Stealing is illegal per se.

I have no idea, and I suspect neither have you, whether participation in the illegal vote was itself an illegal act. Failure to prosecute doesn't mean that there was no act which was illegal. The root cause is much more productive to prosecute and I'm sure that's what the Spanish government is considering.

So the referendum itself was a crime? Are those who organised it going to be prosecuted for organising it? Because if it's illegal in the sence that stealing is illegal then surely a crime has been commited.

But i'm pretty confident you're not right. I'm pretty sure the referendum was illegal in the sense that gay marriage was illegal. It wasn't a crime to have a gay wedding ceremony just like it wasn't a crime to have this referendum. Just that neither had the support of law. That's why when you read headlines in the press about it the word "illegal" is surrounded by quotation marks.

But hey, if people start being prosecuted with the crime of organising the referendum then i'll stand corrected. But i'm pretty sure it's unconstitutional to beat the **** out of people for exercising their right to vote.

[Sidney1st]

So are you're saying that those who voted commited a crime? Because that's the implication of the Spanish government being within their rights to prevent people voting - if voting would be a crime.

Voting in an illegal referendum is something for the Spanish courts to decide on.
You're trying to make it overly simplistic and attempting to get one of us to say voting is a crime so you can start wittering on about rights to vote etc or you're just itching to call me a fascist again.

The referendum was illegal, that's the basics of it.
The legality of voting in it is more complex and only an expert of law could determine, something neither of us are.

[Imploding Turtle]

Voting in an illegal referendum is something for the Spanish courts to decide on.
You're trying to make it overly simplistic and attempting to get one of us to say voting is a crime so you can start wittering on about rights to vote etc or you're just itching to call me a fascist again.

The referendum was illegal, that's the basics of it.
The legality of voting in it is more complex and only an expert of law could determine, something neither of us are.

I don't need an itch to call you a fascist. I'll call you one if you start talking like one. Again.

You keep calling it illegal but have yet to state whether the referendum was a crime. If the referendum was a crime then was voting in it a crime, or just organising it? And if organising it was a crime there will surely be prosecutions, will there not?
But again, you're essentially declaring "illegal" to mean "criminal", and ignoring the more sensible definition that the referendum simply didn't carry the weight of law.

So there was no justification for police to even prevent people voting in it, much less beat the **** out of them for trying.

[Rowls]

Oooohhhh

We're on the brink of somebody being called a Fascist!

How about we drop a few other accusations around too?

I recommend:

Bigot

Racist

Transphobe

Sexist (although Misogynist is even better)

[Sidney1st]

If a government declares it illegal then what is it if it isn't illegal?

At no point have I behaved like a fascist on here, you're just too eager to label me as one yo suit yourself.

[Sidney1st]

I was informed by a mate that Walton and I think mdwat were talking about me on twitter, saying I was being a fascist on here.
At that point I knew I'd made it.

[ClaretEngineer]

I see the UTC Expert Debating Team are out in force.

I've been unable to find any specific laws online relating to the legality of holding a referendum. Though if there is such a statement in law that defines that staging a referendum is against the law, surely that would deem it illegal.

That said if it is not written into law positively or negatively then the outcome is not legally binding, not the same thing as illegal, and therefore not much different from a survey or poll.

Surely any referendum for anything would have to pass through the Spanish Parliament. Enough support from ministers backing any referendum would be allowed to proceed.

The way I see it here Catalonia has balloted its residents to provide an indication of whether they wish to become independent (or not).

Given the overwhelming support for independence, the Government have to at listen.

In any case, the use of force was not reasonable at all.

[thatdberight]

So the referendum itself was a crime? Are those who organised it going to be prosecuted for organising it? Because if it's illegal in the sence that stealing is illegal then surely a crime has been commited.

Yes, holding after it had been declared unconstitutional by the court leaves the organisers open to charges such as misuse of public funds, 'contempt of court', perverting the course of justice. Real crimes. Ballots on independence are not, per se, criminal acts. After all, there might be agreed ballots. But, having floated it, gone to court and lost, the Catalan leadership has quite clearly flouted the rule of law by holding it. Yes, I suspect those who organised it will be held to account but this is politics so who knows; there are almost always deals to be done.

I suspect "illegal" is in inverted commas because of that nuance that the ballot is illegal in the context of a court judgement, not because ballots are an illegal act. But illegal it is. So says Spain's highest court.

[thatdberight]

I see the UTC Expert Debating Team are out in force.

I've been unable to find any specific laws online relating to the legality of holding a referendum. Though if there is such a statement in law that defines that staging a referendum is against the law, surely that would deem it illegal.

That said if it is not written into law positively or negatively then the outcome is not legally binding, not the same thing as illegal, and therefore not much different from a survey or poll.

Surely any referendum for anything would have to pass through the Spanish Parliament. Enough support from ministers backing any referendum would be allowed to proceed.

The way I see it here Catalonia has balloted its residents to provide an indication of whether they wish to become independent (or not).

Given the overwhelming support for independence, the Government have to at listen.

In any case, the use of force was not reasonable at all.

You're wrong. You're OK up to the point when you talk about it being inherently neither legal nor illegal. That's why we (and Spain) have courts. They went to court. The highest court ruled against the Catalan government. That court might also decide against the government if they proposed it unless the Constitution were re-written; a process about which I know nothing.

The "way you see it" is wrong. This was phrased as a binding referendum whose outcome would be enacted by the semi-autonomous Catalan government.

The Spanish government have been listening. People who say that mean "they have to say, Yes". They listened. They said no.

[Walton]

I was informed by a mate that Walton and I think mdwat were talking about me on twitter, saying I was being a fascist on here.
At that point I knew I'd made it.

I said you were virtually sieg heiling, which is what I also stated earlier in this thread.

It wasn't mdwat either.

[ClaretEngineer]

You're wrong. You're OK up to the point when you talk about it being inherently neither legal nor illegal. That's why we (and Spain) have courts. They went to court. The highest court ruled against the Catalan government. That court might also decide against the government if they proposed it unless the Constitution were re-written; a process about which I know nothing.

The "way you see it" is wrong. This was phrased as a binding referendum whose outcome would be enacted by the semi-autonomous Catalan government.

The Spanish government have been listening. People who say that mean "they have to say, Yes". They listened. They said no.

I profess to know very little about the Spanish legal system and the legality of any referendum. I was just giving my view of it appears to be to the relatively uneducated (on the subject matter).

So what you're saying is the Spanish High Court in Spanish Govt v Catalan Govt ruled against Catalan Govt in their quest to break free from Spain? You mention the Constitution, is this why the Catalan case failed as their was insufficient votes (in the Court / Parliament) pursue a change in the Constitution?

Phrasing something as 'legally binding'' means absolutely nothing without a legal basis in law, again that doesn't make it illegal. Semi autonomy means they have certain control of their own affairs (I suppose in much the same way as Local Governments here do - on certain aspects) yet still come under the jurisdiction of the Spanish Govt.

I'm neither here nor their on this chap, and I'm certainly no expert.

[Sidney1st]

That's why I said I think in regards to mdwat.

Nor was I seig heiling, at no point have I been a fascist on here.

No issue with Catalonia wanting a referendum, no issue with them wanting independence and I've no issue with Spain wanting to stop the vote.

I've stated numerous times that the use of force was uncalled for and excessive yet still I got called something I'm not, nor have I ever been and neither do I want to live in a police state despite that suggestion on twitter.

[Walton]

Hey, it's not just been me calling out your posts in this thread as being on the totalitarian, fascist side.

Like it or not, that's how you're coming across with these views.

[thatdberight]

I profess to know very little about the Spanish legal system and the legality of any referendum. I was just giving my view of it appears to be to the relatively uneducated (on the subject matter).

So what you're saying is the Spanish High Court in Spanish Govt v Catalan Govt ruled against Catalan Govt in their quest to break free from Spain? You mention the Constitution, is this why the Catalan case failed as their was insufficient votes (in the Court / Parliament) pursue a change in the Constitution?

Phrasing something as 'legally binding'' means absolutely nothing without a legal basis in law, again that doesn't make it illegal. Semi autonomy means they have certain control of their own affairs (I suppose in much the same way as Local Governments here do - on certain aspects) yet still come under the jurisdiction of the Spanish Govt.

I'm neither here nor their on this chap, and I'm certainly no expert.

No-one here is an expert and I'm sure any Spanish constitutional lawyers would shake their heads at the confusion of illegal, unlawful and illicit flying around. However, background at the link below is I think useful (which also is important in laying to rest the unspoken assumption often given by our media that there is a huge majority for Catalan independence within Catalonia).

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economi ... xplains-17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A BBC report also says "... chief prosecutor José Manuel Maza... said his office would present criminal charges against members of the Catalan parliament for voting for the referendum, and against members of the Catalan government for signing off on it."

The story of 2014 referendum (which was proposed as both a binding and an 'opinion poll' style) is also pertinent.

[Sidney1st]

That'll be IT happy if charges are made, it clears up the confusion that way.

[Rowls]

Hey, it's not just been me calling out your posts in this thread as being on the totalitarian, fascist side.
Like it or not, that's how you're coming across with these views.

Now here's fighting talk!

Forgive me because I have become weary of accusations of "fascism" so I haven't been paying attention.

Can you give examples of Sidney's supposed "fascism"?

Genuinely interested.

[Chobulous]

Everyone seems to be looking at this in broad terms when in reality the terms are very narrow. The Spanish declared this referendum illegal because it was against their constitution. In their terms it was illegal and it will be up to them to decide if they feel that prosecutions are warranted. The outside world may have opinions about the fairness of that in terms of human rights but in terms of the rule of law in Spain, that is a matter for the Spanish to decide. This circular argument about whether voting in a referendum is illegal is just semantics being used to score points on a message board by bedroom dwellers.

[Rowls]

This circular argument about whether voting in a referendum is illegal is just semantics being used to score points on a message board by bedroom dwellers.

Let the record show I'm in my living room.

And today I'm wearing clean underwear.

[Walton]

Now here's fighting talk!

Forgive me because I have become weary of accusations of "fascism" so I haven't been paying attention.

Can you give examples of Sidney's supposed "fascism"?

Genuinely interested.

Imploding Turtle covered it pretty well on Sunday. Just look through the thread.

[IanMcL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-BdN3ZiH2w

[Rowls]

Imploding Turtle covered it pretty well on Sunday. Just look through the thread.

That would be a first for IT as far as I'm aware.

Which thread?

[Walton]

That would be a first for IT as far as I'm aware.

Which thread?

Erm, this one.

[bluelabrador16]

Well worth watching:

CrossTalk: Catalonia Rising

"The people of Catalonia went to the polls seeking independence. The Spanish state reacted with force against peaceful voters. Still again the question arises: What is the EU’s commitment to democracy? And who is allowed self-determination?"

Peter Lavelle with Matt Qvortrup, Matthew Goodwin, and John Laughland.

https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/4056 ... ul-voters/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... WgDQ1d6gQE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rowls]

Erm, this one.

Well, I've had a trawl through the thread and this is all I can find:

* Sidney believes the ballot was illegal, as do the Spanish authorities. He believes because it was unconstitutional the Spanish authorities had the right to attempt to close down the ballot.

With specific reference to "fascism" IT has given us the following analysis of this viewpoint:

It was illegal to express certain opinions in Germany in the late 30s. The ruling government took steps to prevent the expression of those opinions. So i guess because it was illegal then i guess we should be looking back and wondering "what's the issue?"

Err. Yes, you dumb ****. Criticism is not suppression. It's telling that you don't think they're different.
And yet you choose to share so many fascistic views. Odd, eh?

You've weighed in with the (as yet unverified) accusation that Sidney performs Nazi salutes:

Wow, Sidney's right arm must be hurting from all that sieg heiling, as he defends pure fascism.

Perhaps you could further expand on what this definition of "pure fascism" is? Defining political ideologies is a tricky business. If you've "purified" the process you will be a hit in the world of academia. For sure.

Sidney for his part has said:

I'm not a facist, never have been, nor will I be so you can just **** off

Which does seem to be rather final, if a little curt. Maybe he's a fascist without realising it? It might explain the sweariness but then again, IT has a habit of swearing too. Perhaps ImplodingTurtleHead is a fascist too? *worried face*

I'd say the evidence to support the accusation of "fascism" against Sidney it is decidedly weak and tenuous. If you have any more evidence (photos of Sidney performing Nazi salutes for example) then post them here to help support your accusations. Maybe somebody out there knows if Sidney is on a list of Nazi Party members or attends fascist meetings at his local town hall when nobody is watching?

As it is, I think your argument (and IT's) that Sidney is a "fascist" is rizla thin. I could go further and say that to label somebody "fascist" with either little or no proof is exactly what Hitler would have done. But that might appear flippant.

[Rowls]

I don't actually know what Sidney looks like.

Could somebody look out for him on this video celebrating General Franco.

He's probably in one of the crowds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI5dua56WFE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks to all the anti-fascists out there for keeping us safe!