SD is he afraid to move on?

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:53 pm

Lads, seriously, why do you play? I know I've posted, but it's not a reply.

I liken it to answering a PPI claims line.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:56 pm

Becoming harder to wind you up recently with such talented WUMS within your own fan base..

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:58 pm

Leisure wrote:Go on then, I'll humour you. Why do you think this? Explain.

He thinks that because he said it last year as well. If he keeps on saying it, he thinks one day he'll be right.

bartons baggage · Post by **bartons baggage** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:00 pm

bobinho wrote:Lads, seriously, why do you play? I know I've posted, but it's not a reply.

I liken it to answering a PPI claims line.

It's a condition known as Pavlov's response.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:16 pm

ablueclaret wrote:I don't think SD can take this club any further, he's reached that glass ceiling, just maintaining the status quo fine achievement though that might be is not what he needs to progress.
Yes he might never get the same level of success or security ever again but if he doesn't pit his abilities at a higher level with better players and the need for a more flexible approach he will always remain a good but limited manager.
He can do better than that.

Wow, we've progressed fantastically. At the start of last season Burnley had never survived a season in the Premier League without being relegated at the end of it. Where did we end the season?

At the start of this season, some/many fans (not me) only talked about another relegation battle - the teams we were competing with are the other teams that maybe expected to be bottom of the table at the end of the season.

So, we've now played 9 games, we've got 13 points, we sit 8th in the table - but there's not a long way to the bottom 3 below us - and, as Saturday showed - it's a long, long way to the very top.

And, abc is saying SD can't "take this club any further, he's reached that glass ceiling. That was quick. That is a fantastic achievement.

Personally, I'd like to judge Sean Dyche on Burnley's position at the end of our second successive season in the Premier League. If we are still top half, and another club comes in with a better offer for him (and why wouldn't they), I'd say that he has achieved for Burnley, thank him, and wish him every success with his next club.

But, I'd be under no illusions that bringing in a new manager to Burnley will bring us more success than we could achieve with Sean Dyche. Is there a manager out there that can take Burnley from a mid-table side into one of the "top 6?"

How would everyone sleep - for worry that that new manager would leave us - if we could ever get someone better than Sean Dyche managing the club we support?

turfytopper · Post by **turfytopper** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:44 pm

ablueclaret wrote:If SD wants to become a top manager this is the time to move on, the opportunity might never come again, or will his innate conservatism mean he sticks to what he knows.
If he's never prepared to take a gamble and find out if he can manage a top side then he'll for ever remain a good manager not a great one.
As with Keane his time has come to test himself.

I think it's time for you to move on?

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:44 pm

the word "afraid" is afraid of Sean Dyche

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:49 pm

bobinho wrote:I saw the title, and I thought "which complete and utter f*ckstain would start a thread like that?"

Then I made a little bet with myself.

Should've put my house on it. It was gonna be one of the "four" and lo, it turns out it was my first choice!!!

Disappointed im not your first choice

Leisure · Post by **Leisure** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:52 pm

KRBFC wrote:Disappointed im not your first choice

Yawn!

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:13 pm

Leisure wrote:Yawn!

Are you okay pal? You've been at it all day. Sorry if I hurt your feelings its just friendly banter.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:17 pm

Come on krbfc, that's a bit tame. Take a break, think a little and come back locked and loaded..

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:25 pm

Saxoman wrote:Come on krbfc, that's a bit tame. Take a break, think a little and come back locked and loaded..

I think iv genuinely ruined the poor blokes day so thou shall offer an apology.

Leisure · Post by **Leisure** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:37 pm

KRBFC wrote:I think iv genuinely ruined the poor blokes day so thou shall offer an apology.

Ha ha ha! Don't flatter yourself!

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:14 pm

I don't think SD believes he can take this squad any further in part because he has not devised the flexibility that progress depends upon but more that he has failed to recruit the players who can allow it.
In many ways he is even more restricted now than in the past. Only when he had Ings did he really have that player who could change games who could link up midfield and attack, ever since it has been much more regimented.
Look SD is the best modern manager Burnley have had by some way, not the most in tune with its historic sense of style and play, that honour would have to fall on OC, but he has achieved huge success by applying the basics, and in particular bringing organisation fitness and mental strength to the squad, it is a huge achievement over a prolonged period in footballing terms, but if he is ever to become a complete manager he has to move on.
He keeps on telling us how ambitious he is, and if he truly is he needs to pit himself against the best, not by dint of defensive organisation but by developing a side capable of both entertaining and achieving. That is not going to happen here, he knows that, to do so he needs to leave and any one of the teams without a manager at present would give him that opportunity.
None of course are the perfect fit for him, it is he who will have to adapt to them, but to go to a club he fits would require him to step down a League or simply stay put. For us that might be fine although I believe the signs are his methods are beginning to become less effective, but for an ambitious man who must have the goal of leading a top side opportunities only come around so often.
Like EH he might become seen as a one town manager unable or unwillingto take the next step up.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:56 pm

A player who could change games and link it all up?

Defour??

I know you're probably gutted he's still here and playing well, but there's no need to ignore a player who's of far better quality then Ings...

Why step down a league?
Look at how clubs with more money have struggled to get out of that league.
If wolves do it this season it will only be down to the fact they're being used as a shop window by an agent.

As for not being able to take the step up, where's that too?

Serious question, what's the next step up from Burnley?

Clubs outside the top 6 generally just make up the numbers, he might as well stay with us if that's the case.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:57 pm

He's also developing the side, thus proving you haven't seen us play...

HunterST_BFC · Post by **HunterST_BFC** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:40 am

KRBFC wrote:I think iv genuinely ruined the poor blokes day so thou shall offer an apology.

Re KRBFC
ClaretTony wrote:
"Why do you constantly have to make ridiculous comments and ruin threads?"

Because the MODS don't stop it.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:55 am

HunterST_BFC wrote:Re KRBFC
ClaretTony wrote:
"Why do you constantly have to make ridiculous comments and ruin threads?"

Because the MODS don't stop it.

Please tell me how you consider a genuine apology to be a ridiculous comment or ruining a thread?

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:51 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:It's a real quandary.

Imagine never moving on, spending day after day doing the same thing, never progressing, never challenging yourself. Just regurgitating the day before and the day before that and the day before that. Never moving on.

Imagine that abc, can you just imagine that?

Just passing by to check how many likes on this comment. Currently at 31!

Must be dead set for post of the year?

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:59 am

Just remember all the voices telling Keane that a move away from Burnley was essential for him to progress. When I suggested he might never find a partnership like he had with Mee again I was ridiculed (nothing new there).
Well I'm suggesting Dyche needs to move on to progress and the rest of you are warning him he might never have it so good again.
I think you are showing that you just don't believe him good enough to hold down a big job.
It is you who are the DYCHE DOUBTERS.
Sometime you have to let go of the apron strings and let the man fly.
As for Defour being the new Ings, sorry but no, Defour is a fine player and has made our midfield more effective but he does not have the inspirational qualities Ings has and more importantly he doesn't score goals.
That is the big issue which faces this side.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:01 am

MY PRECIOUS, WE LIKES IT, WE LIKES IT A LOT

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:07 am

Thought it was me who was Gollum but if you want to play the part fair enough.
Wonderful character though.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:14 am

I'm sure SD would like to leave with his legacy intact and will hesitate to move mid season but these jobs only come up so often and his stall may not be so high come the end of the season.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:21 am

ablueclaret wrote:I'm sure SD would like to leave with his legacy intact and will hesitate to move mid season but these jobs only come up so often and his stall may not be so high come the end of the season.

Might be a lot higher??

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:27 am

It might Boatshed, but unless he can conjure up more goals I fancy keeping this side on course will be hard.
For me we have gained a system for playing away but lost all round flexibility.
Wells is probably the key to rest of the season, will he fire or will it be a step too far?

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:32 am

ablueclaret wrote:It might Boatshed, but unless he can conjure up more goals I fancy keeping this side on course will be hard.
For me we have gained a system for playing away but lost all round flexibility.
Wells is probably the key to rest of the season, will he fire or will it be a step too far?

So, given SD can't get us scoring enough goals, as you imply, why would a club be interested in him now?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 am

ablueclaret wrote:I'm sure SD would like to leave with his legacy intact and will hesitate to move mid season but these jobs only come up so often and his stall may not be so high come the end of the season.

Good morning, abc. did you miss my reply to you earlier on Tuesday evening? Do you not think that seeing the season through with Burnley is a better measure of Sean Dyche's management capabilities than departing after 9 games? So, however well the Clarets are going after those 9 games, the only meaningful measure is an end of season measure?

If you are good enough the opportunities will always be there. There's been "panic" among a number of Premier League clubs this season - already 3 managers gone - and they probably aren't the last. Don't you think that some clubs will be assessing their management teams at the end of the season? Don't you think that Sean Dyche will know that he will have a stronger opportunity to progress if he moves on in those circumstances - rather than move as a "mid-season rescue act?"

UTC

CrispyClaret · Post by **CrispyClaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:42 am

Non of us know what is going through Dyches’ mind right now, but his options have always been the same if he wants to progress his career.
1. Stay at Burnley
2. Leave for an established side that are stable but need a new manager for whatever reason
3. Leave for an established side that are struggling.

Option 1 relies on the purse strings being loosened once the board think we have enough pennies to spend more freely.
Option 2 is a simple enough choice.
Option 3 is a nest of vipers, Everton being a case in point. A mid season swap to a side bereft of ideas and cohesion and without a recognised senior striker. No option to bring in new faces for over 2 months is also a massive gamble.

It will be a sad day when he leaves and takes all the back room staff in one go. Our worry is who would come in next, it would be nice if SD had a list of decent successors to recommend to the board who won’t screw things up. Then again Sir Alex got his way with his chosen successor!!

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:55 am

Paul what you say is perfectly reasonable and probably the more likely scenario but you just don't know which clubs might be available then. It might be that our star falls and we are relegated in which case SD might be faced with a choice of Championship sides.
It might of course be the case that non of the present clubs with vacancies fancy him as their manager.
But if he is a man with ambition wanting to prove himself at the highest level then he has to take the opportunities when they emerge and Everton would certainly be one of those opportunities.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:31 am

114..abc

In this post you say this..' I believe the signs are his methods are beginning to become less effective..'

What does this mean?

Is your comment based on recent results, if so which ones?

Is your comment based on recent performances, if so which ones?

Could I politely ask you, what are the last two Burnley FC matches that you saw live, so that I can better judge the relevance of your comments on here about team performances and performances of specific players..?

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:35 am

Success is relative. Managing Celtic, is currently a guarantee of siccess. Managing Leicester is very iffy. Managing WHU impossible. Chelsea = 1 season of success and the sack. Everton is in dire need of a rebuild. 7th heaven is no longer possible. Palace....do what they want.

Burnley - nothing expected. Tiny town in prem. Local directors who support their manager and are willing to invest cautiously for the future. Nothing to lose and everything to gain. A lifetime achievement award and the hearts and minds of players and fans for life. Best job in football.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:42 am

Thing is vast majority of clubs get rid of their managers during the season - which means that the likekyhood is that when Dyche leaves it will be also be during a season.

It would be great if there was a transfer type window for managers leaving but not sure exactly how this could work and doubt whether the clubs would ever agree to this as there is just too much money at stake....and too many instances of a manager losing a dressing room etc.

Whilst you could say it's the owners and chairmans problem if they make stupid appointments and they should pay for the mistakes - unfortunately they are the very same people who would have to agree such a change...so why would they ?

These things rarely end well for clubs like Burnley - we need to prepare ourselves for that and hope our Board has got a plan B.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:50 am

I think you need to look at our home performances for the answer you are searching for Hampstead. For me we just don't possess enough firepower to progress, defensively we are still exceptional in midfield more secure but as a attacking Unit we are extremely limited.
Just think how many goals we have scored when our opponents have had the full compliment of players on the field.
I will be delighted if we continue to fly high in the League but my bet is that we will start sliding down the table unless Wells can provide some dynamism up front.
SD has produced a well oiled and solid side which has earned him and the club respect, for him to develop as a manager he needs to make the next quantum leap to manage a side with high expectations and players with attacking and more anarchic abilities.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:51 am

Thankfully the level of discussion has improved immensely this morning now that the head bangers have departed.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:07 am

abc..I have read carefully what you have written..your comments are general, and fair enough.

You did not answer my question though.

You said..' I believe the signs are his methods are beginning to become less effective..'

I will try again...as compared to when?

In post 130 you chose to ignore my last question.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:00 pm

Dyche hasn't replaced Gray so our forward line is at present one dimensional and we are lacking in pace out wide. Although we brought in a raft of players of whom 4 really don't feature we are really a slightly more lopsided squad and side.
Two good signings does not a summer recruitment make, we wasted a big opportunity this summer in failing to recruit dynamic young talent, for me a huge disappointment.
When teams realise you let us play with the ball and then counter is when we really do have problems, remember we fell away last year and I fancy the same will happen this year.
Sides like Huddersfield and Brighton have that dynamic and individual skill set which means that victories are attainable, I fancy we'll be involved in the a lot of low scoring draws.
As to how much of Burnley I see, in his era anyone with access to the Internet can see just as much as they want.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:07 pm

Fans have short memories Ian. Would be nice for him to leave after another successful year in the Premier League but football as TVC states does not work like that.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:09 pm

Would that be Gray who's mainly as sub at Watford?

I don't even know if he's scored yet.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:27 pm

That's the one Sidney.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:34 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Fans have short memories Ian. Would be nice for him to leave after another successful year in the Premier League but football as TVC states does not work like that.

As that famous line in Pulp Fiction says "lets not start sucking each others *%*%s yet" (or words to that effect).

The only thing I was pointing out was how managerial appointments and departures tend to work and that if Dyche did decide to leave during a season we should not hold this against him as its absolutely nothing to do with loyalty or integrity...it`s simply the way of the world.

I do not agree at all with your assessment of Dyche or our team.

Dyche is the best Burnley manager in my lifetime by a long way - what he has done for the club is incredible and I have no doubts that he will move on to bigger and better (for him and the lucky club) things.

As for the team it has improved year on year and is stronger now than it was last year as the evidence of our league position suggests. Chris Wood looks to me like a better all round striker than Andre Gray - again as all the evidence suggests so far. Jack Cork has been brilliant and we have a stronger squad and bench than ever. It`s unfair to point at players like Taylor not playing - we have bought for the future and you need 2 good players in all positions now if you are going to move to the next level. He is not in the team at the moment because somehow Dyche has got Ward playing the best football of his career.

It`s not a coincidence that so many players have or enjoying the best spells of their careers under Dyche - you could go through most of the team and wonder how these players are playing to the standard they are given how much they cost and what they did at their previous clubs. You can give the players credit for meeting the challenge but its largely down to Dyche and his team.

Are things perfect ? No....they never are and never will be.
Has Dyche made mistakes ? Yes.....name me a manager who hasn`t.

Why on earth any Burnley supporter would want Dyche to leave is completely beyond my comprehension.

When he does go we better all hope we can get someone half as good as him.

Thirteen · Post by **Thirteen** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:48 pm

I would like to add my opinion.

I have to agree with ablueclaret, in reference to us lacking a threat up front. Sean Dyche is the best manager I have seen at Burnley, I've been watching since 1985. But as he readily points out he's still learning. I think turning us into a potent attacking threat is the final thing he needs to do. I think if he could do this he'd be courted by a top 6 club.

To back this up I will point to three games.

Home v West Brom, the best I've seen us play this season, loads of possession, knocked the ball around superbly. But we didn't score and they nicked 3 points. We couldn't break them down. Lots of balls into the box, but that's exactly how Pulis would've wanted the game to go.

Home v West Ham, they were reduced to 10 men, aren't playing well and they sat back and let us come at them. It took us a long time to break them down. As per the West Brom game we predictably hit loads of balls into the box and managed to get one over the line. But we had almost 70 minutes to do this and still managed one goal.

In relation to those two games I would've liked to see some of the fantastic movement that Danny Ings used to give us, something a little bit different.

The third game I want to mention is the Chelsea game. I know we scored 3 and it was fantastic, but I think Chelsea shot themselves in the foot by very arrogantly assuming they were too good for us even with 10, which resulted in them not sitting back a bit more. This was possibly due to them being at home and champions etc.

I hope Sean Dyche stays with us for a good while yet. But to echo ablueclaret I hope Wells can add a different dimension. Here's the catch 22, if he does we need to worry about way more clubs than Everton, Leicester and West Ham.

Please remember this is just my opinion.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:49 pm

There has been some good recruiting and some poor, of the lads brought in this summer only three can be seen as here for the long-term.
I understand why many would want Dyche to stay, for me I fancy a breathe of fresh air and a new face. Yes it might lead to a downward spiral but adventure was always part of being a Burnley fan something the present generation have lost.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:04 pm

Break it down into names and your reasons.

That way we can digest it, review and discuss it.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:36 pm

Thirteen wrote:I have to agree with ablueclaret, in reference to us lacking a threat up front. Sean Dyche is the best manager I have seen at Burnley, I've been watching since 1985. But as he readily points out he's still learning. I think turning us into a potent attacking threat is the final thing he needs to do. I think if he could do this he'd be courted by a top 6 club.

If we were a potent attacking threat, he wouldn't need courting by a top 6 club, because we would be a top 6 club. One extra goal per home game would mean 5 extra points, and we'd be fourth.

Thirteen · Post by **Thirteen** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:47 pm

dsr - good point!

It's absolutely amazing that we're talking fine margins between being in the European places! I never thought I'd be posting something like that!

Long may it continue.

UTC NNN

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:50 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Yes it might lead to a downward spiral but adventure was always part of being a Burnley fan something the present generation have lost.

That's absolutely crazy. Reminds me of rovers fans when they said they'd rather see rovers in the championship 'playing football' than premier league under Sam allardyce.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Saxo - well said young man !!

I knew you were a closet claret !

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:10 pm

TVC15 wrote:Saxo - well said young man !!

I knew you were a closet claret !

75% Rovers 15% Burnley 10% Accy Stanley

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:39 am

ablueclaret wrote:Fans have short memories Ian. Would be nice for him to leave after another successful year in the Premier League but football as TVC states does not work like that.

Maybe the man who is, along with Howe, longest serving prem manager (apart from Wenger), recognises that the slow building of a small town team with huge history is both exceptional and a unique challenge.

A year somewhere else will never fulfil in the same way.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:54 am

The thing is he is ambitious and unlike Howe has shown he can manage in other environments than his home patch, but he's yet to handle the demands of a club with high expectations, a large squad, large egos and players who need freedom on the pitch to perform.
He's made it known that he feels he and other English managers should be managing the top clubs so you'd expect him to jump at the opportunity if it came along.