Bitcoin

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:51 pm

It seems to be all over the media now.
I certainly don't understand it nor do I want to really but hope those invested already reap some reward for their efforts.

I am at that point in time where I am happy and don't need to be making money, just spending it wisely whilst enjoying life with my wife.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:30 pm

JohnMac wrote:I am at that point in time where I am happy and don't need to be making money, just spending it wisely whilst enjoying life with my wife.

I envy you that. I’m 8 years away from retirement. I had a chat with my advisor at Fidelity investments 3 weeks ago, and their mark is 6 times annual earnings for retirement. I’m at one and a half!

Hence the need to speculate and risk-take

ebby · Post by **ebby** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:07 am

From Tuesday; - "My son bought Bitcoin when it was just under US$6.6K - its now over US$11.5K"

Two days later it's over US$14K - he is asking me why work? Anyone have an answer?

TonbridgeClaret · Post by **TonbridgeClaret** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:40 am

Invested £600 in Bitcoin on 3rd November. Now worth over £1,200! Intend to remove my stake and have the remainder as a free ride. Also, there was an excellent programme on Radio 4 about Bitcoin yesterday, where all but one expert (who said it was a scam) said people should now invest in Bitcoin.

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:31 am

Just a quick update to this - the price went through $14,900 this morning, meaning my colleague is now sat on roughly $97,000 worth

keith1879 · Post by **keith1879** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:06 pm

dushanbe wrote:Just a quick update to this - the price went through $14,900 this morning, meaning my colleague is now sat on roughly $97,000 worth

I have tried with interest to follow some of this thread but am struggling. It seems to me that Bitcoin has no practical everyday use (unlike gold, bronze, silver for example - all of which have been used to make stuff and have been used as or have backed up currencies in the past). It also seems that Bitcoin doesn't really have any day to day value as a currency (you can't for the most part buy food, drink or holidays with it for example).

All that really seems to happen is that people buy and sell it at a profit. Surely that can't go on for ever?

If it does become a de facto currency then it will have to stabilise in value - at which point there will be little point in speculating in it because the profit won't be there.

I'm missing something aren't I? Does Bitcoin mining have some useful DP side-effect that I have missed perhaps?

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:24 pm

TonbridgeClaret wrote:Invested £600 in Bitcoin on 3rd November. Now worth over £1,200! Intend to remove my stake and have the remainder as a free ride. Also, there was an excellent programme on Radio 4 about Bitcoin yesterday, where all but one expert (who said it was a scam) said people should now invest in Bitcoin.

That's exactly the way to do it. Make your position risk free asap. You'll probably make something during the Xmas rally and I'd take whatever you have in Jan to be honest.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:51 pm

A neat summary for what has happened with Bitcoin price:

$0-$1k: 1789 days
$1k-$2k: 1271 days
$2k-$3k: 23 days
$3k-$4k: 62 days
$4k-$5k: 61 days
$5k-$6k: 8 days
$6k-$7k: 13 days
$7k-$8k: 14 days
$8k-$9k: 9 days
$9k-$10k: 2 days
$10k-$11k: 1 day
$11k-$12k: 6 days
$12k-$13k: 1 day
$13k-$16k: SAME DAY

My tip (entirely a guess) is that price will continue to push up for a while as all of the people who are now seeing the newspaper headlines and the like get on board (I'm hearing that record numbers of people are signing up to exchanges today) and then there'll be a significant correction (50% or so) before it starts to chug back up again slowly.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:20 pm

NRC wrote:indigolake - my iota.x exchange is binance.com. Signed up and transferred eth.x into it to buy iota.x...... eventually figured out the transaction. However, I have no clue how to exit if I want to short it.... can you take a look? My guess is convert back to eth.x then transfer over to coinbase?

Hi NRC, sorry I'm late replying - haven't been on for a few days. Do you still need help with this? I don't think there are fiat options on Binance so you'd probably need to send it over to a cryptocurrency that does trade in fiat such as Kraken (that's the one I use but it's very, very unreliable of late) and Coinbase which you've mentioned. Converting to ETH if there is such a pairing makes more sense than converting to BTC since the transactions are much faster if you transfer it to another exchange.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:23 pm

aggi wrote:A neat summary for what has happened with Bitcoin price:

$0-$1k: 1789 days
$1k-$2k: 1271 days
$2k-$3k: 23 days
$3k-$4k: 62 days
$4k-$5k: 61 days
$5k-$6k: 8 days
$6k-$7k: 13 days
$7k-$8k: 14 days
$8k-$9k: 9 days
$9k-$10k: 2 days
$10k-$11k: 1 day
$11k-$12k: 6 days
$12k-$13k: 1 day
$13k-$16k: SAME DAY

My tip (entirely a guess) is that price will continue to push up for a while as all of the people who are now seeing the newspaper headlines and the like get on board (I'm hearing that record numbers of people are signing up to exchanges today) and then there'll be a significant correction (50% or so) before it starts to chug back up again slowly.

I think the price will reach $20,000 in the coming days and there will then be a sharp fall. I'm not sure if it will fall as far as 50% but nobody can claim to know for sure. I got out of crypto and back into fiat as of today as I'm expecting any BTC dip to take altcoins with it (as it usually does). The plan is to then pick up some cut-price crypto! Let's see how that works out, heh. Trying to predict the crypto market is futile I've found.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:41 pm

Indigo - thanks for the reply.... so yes, it seems convert back to eth.x and onto coinbase to convert to $ is the way to go.... that said, I'm long on iota.x

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:44 pm

NRC wrote:Indigo - thanks for the replay.... so yes, it seems convert back to eth.x and onto coinbase to convert to $ is the way to go.... that said, I'm long on iota.x

Yes, that looks like your best bet to be honest. Honestly, I wish I'd bought into IOTA a while back having seen the huge gains of late. It may take a while before it reaches those levels again but I agree that it's worth holding long-term. It's certainly a project with a lot of potential. One of my personal favourites is Vertcoin.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:18 pm

I lost 0.011 in the recent Nicehash hack, a couple weeks of mining overnight on my GPU.
Very annoying as they put at 0.01 as min withdrawal, pays out on Fridays so I was two days away from getting it off the system...

Not the end of the world but annoying none the less.

Leisure · Post by **Leisure** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:31 pm

Apologies in advance as I haven't trawled through all the thread but can someone explain (in simple terms) how the value of a coin increases? Is it basically just a pyramid scheme?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:50 pm

Leisure wrote:Apologies in advance as I haven't trawled through all the thread but can someone explain (in simple terms) how the value of a coin increases? Is it basically just a pyramid scheme?

It increases because there are more buyers than sellers. It's the same as any other scarce commodity - If you want a Leonardo painting, you have to pay $150m because more people want to buy than want to sell, and they aren't making them any more.

The problem with cryptocurrencies as a whole is that they are still making them, the supply is infinite, so sooner or later the sellers won't find any buyers. Then the cryptocurrency world crashes.

Bitcoins have a slight chance of avoiding the crash because they are (apparently) limited in supply and they are the "established name" in cryptocurrency, so have the most solid reputation. But remember that reputation is all they have, there is no intrinsic value. But as long as their software truly is incorruptible and will remain so no matter what future computer developments exist, then it has a chance of retaining value.

IMO, of course. There are plenty of people who reckon the bubble / structured increase in value will continue for ever. But be sure of this - the reason bitcoins are worth eight times what they were 6 months ago is because of the number of people who want to buy them to make a profit, not (as in Leonardo's case) because they want to own something precious and rare. When the people who want to make a profit decide that they have made their profit and now want to sell, they had better hope that there are enough new buyers, further down the line, who think that profits are still to be made.

Leisure · Post by **Leisure** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:54 pm

dsr wrote:It increases because there are more buyers than sellers. It's the same as any other scarce commodity - If you want a Leonardo painting, you have to pay $150m because more people want to buy than want to sell, and they aren't making them any more.

The problem with cryptocurrencies as a whole is that they are still making them, the supply is infinite, so sooner or later the sellers won't find any buyers. Then the cryptocurrency world crashes.

Bitcoins have a slight chance of avoiding the crash because they are (apparently) limited in supply and they are the "established name" in cryptocurrency, so have the most solid reputation. But remember that reputation is all they have, there is no intrinsic value. But as long as their software truly is incorruptible and will remain so no matter what future computer developments exist, then it has a chance of retaining value.

IMO, of course. There are plenty of people who reckon the bubble / structured increase in value will continue for ever. But be sure of this - the reason bitcoins are worth eight times what they were 6 months ago is because of the number of people who want to buy them to make a profit, not (as in Leonardo's case) because they want to own something precious and rare. When the people who want to make a profit decide that they have made their profit and now want to sell, they had better hope that there are enough new buyers, further down the line, who think that profits are still to be made.

Cheers. So basically a pyramid scheme then!

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:09 am

Leisure wrote:Cheers. So basically a pyramid scheme then!

It's a bubble, not a pyramid scheme. A pyramid scheme has a criminal behind it who knows he's starting a scheme that will hurt people. If I'm right about this bitcoin stuff, it's a close parallel to the South Sea bubble, where people were buying shares that had little intrinsic value but lots of people wanted to buy them, simply because share prices generally had rocketed and it was believed they would continue to rocket. I'm not aware of a mastermind at the top who is creaming off the profits, though that doesn't mean there isn't one.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:17 am

One thing DSR is missing is the cost of mining from his analysis there. The increasing complexity as more coins are generated means that it becomes more and more difficult to do the calculations to generate new coins and, in most areas of the world, the electricity costs of generating coins are higher than the value of the coins (most are now mined in China using cheap, hydroelectric power).

This persists until there is some kind of change to one of the variables. Either the cost of electricity decreases, the mining hardware becomes more efficient or the price of the coin increases to make it profitable to mine again.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:45 am

dsr wrote:IMO, of course. There are plenty of people who reckon the bubble / structured increase in value will continue for ever. But be sure of this - the reason bitcoins are worth eight times what they were 6 months ago is because of the number of people who want to buy them to make a profit, not (as in Leonardo's case) because they want to own something precious and rare.

The Shieks and Chinese billionaires who buy Leonardos are probably not lovers classical art, they are buying because they are rare AND they will potentially increase in value. The same applies for bitcoin.

Also the record sale of a painting was £180million. The recent Da Vinci sale smashed through bidding of $200m, £300m to reach a record $450million. Is there a DaVinci bubble or is the market just setting the price?

There is also a large libertarian argument behind bitcoin and cyrpto currencies.
Cash is disappearing and soon we will be a cashless society. Soon there will be no way to exchange money from one person to another without a corporate/government third party being involved, setting fees and making judgments on how you are spending your money or who you are spending it with.

Bitcoin allows me to send you digital money without any third party involvement, the network is neutral, anonymous and unbiased.

The banks who this threatens will try to discredit this by saying only terroists and drug gangs need this. Not true, annonamous exchange of money has been around since cash existed and society has been fine. Also the largest drug launderers to date are HSBC who were caught handling a staggering $376bn of suspect money from Mexican drug cartels, they were let go with a small fine.

Right now Bitcoin is being regarded as more of a store of value, digital gold, but there are other cryptos very suitable to small level transactions.

IAmAClaret · Post by **IAmAClaret** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:18 am

Whilst BitCoin value falls and drops at the rate it is, it can't be used in a market. Steam have this week pulled the plug on bitcoin due to it's fluctuations. There are other 'cryptocurrencies' - when they start getting the media attention, they too will rise in value, no doubt.

It's like the other day when the police where saying "Acid Attacks" happen more and more. It's because every attack is highlighted in the media. 1/2 idiots are bound to hear the story and think "I'll try that. I don't like [persons name], that'll show him/her".

What isn't reported too much, is that if your 'wallet' gets hacked, you lose everything. There is no protection.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:29 am

I just love getting up in the morning content there's food on the table...for some reason gaining wealth means nothing to me.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:43 am

Got up to a high of over $19,000 yesterday, now plunged overnight
to $14,566. (Coinbase)

Strap yerselves in.....

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:59 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:Got up to a high of over $19,000 yesterday, now plunged overnight
to $14,566. (Coinbase)

Strap yerselves in.....

Different exchanges have slightly different prices, Coinbase maxed at $17,000.
Up and down 10% in a day is a crazy ride though

TonbridgeClaret · Post by **TonbridgeClaret** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:58 pm

Coin base was showing $19,340 at one stage yesterday.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:05 pm

tim_noone wrote:I just love getting up in the morning content there's food on the table...for some reason gaining wealth means nothing to me.

I'm with you on that one, I have no desire to gamble my hard earned at this time of life in pursuit of Eldorado. Again I reiterate my best wishes go to those who wish to pursue it and I sincerely hope they manage to profit from it.

I retired early when given an opportunity and am fortunate to have fairly decent health, I do think if I had continued working my health and then possibly, life span, would have been affected. I don't need anything in reality, along with my wife I can say we are content as long as we can manage our monthly outgoings.

At this time of year I feel a much better person by giving a little to charity instead of wasting it on greeting cards for example.

Having loads of money is something that will not really alter my outlook on life but having said that, if my Premium Bonds ever stump up a prize then we're outta here! Hasta la Vista Baby

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:34 pm

Indigo..... another question I'm afraid....

I'm not quite getting my head around the whole notion of realizing the gains when ready to do so....

I registered with Binance and I sent them 1 ether from my account valued at the time at $466.90 and sent it to Binance, valued at $438.90. Presumably the difference being the commission. Once there I exchanged it for IOTA. The value was 0.00626 Ether per IOTA, so 159 IOTA. The relationship at time of writing this is 0.00941...

What I don't get is this....
- IOTA is gaining against ETH.... 0.00941 vs 0.00626..... so that's good
- but in order to realize any gain I would need to convert it back into ETH, which by definition has lost value in relation to IOTA
- and then I would have to send it back to Coinbase and convert it to $

I'm seeing a relationship between IOTA/ETH/$ - and I can't figure out my position

What am I not seeing?

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:35 pm

Litecoin up 18% so far today... Bitcoin retreating

Leisure · Post by **Leisure** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:16 pm

"Highly professional" hackers made off with around 4,700 Bitcoin from a leading mining service, a Bitcoin exchange has said.
The value of Bitcoin is currently extremely volatile, but at the time of writing, the amount stolen was worth approximately $80m.
The hacked service was NiceHash, a Slovenia-based mining exchange.
It said it was working hard to recover the Bitcoin for its users, adding: "Someone really wanted to bring us down."
The attack happened early on Wednesday, said NiceHash's chief executive Marko Kobal. Attackers accessed the company's systems at 01:18 CET (00:18 GMT). By 03:37 the hackers, whom the company believes were based outside the European Union, had begun stealing Bitcoin.
The theft comes as the price of Bitcoin continues to surge, dumbfounding experts and stoking concerns of a bubble.
High-stakes attacks like this are not uncommon, with several large breaches and thefts hitting Bitcoin and other related services over the past year.
NiceHash is a mining service, a company that pairs up people with spare computing power with those willing to pay to use it to mine for new Bitcoin.
'Forensic analysis'
Mr Kobal appeared on Facebook Live to address concerns about the hack.
"We have not abandoned you guys," he said.
He explained that an employee's computer was compromised in the attack. He added that "forensic analysis" involving local and international authorities was taking place, but did not expand on which specific agencies were involved when asked by the BBC.

Security issues involving Bitcoin and other related services are a frequent cause for concern for virtual currency traders.

Other recent controversies involving digital currencies include:

the firm behind digital currency Tether said that close to $31m (£23.4m) worth of its tokens were stolen
a "code bug" in Ethereum's digital wallets being blamed last month for freezing more than $150m worth of Ether, preventing investors from being able to cash out
a South Korean exchange, Bithumb, saying that one of its employee's PCs had been hacked in June. Several of its customers reported follow-up scam calls
another South Korean exchange, Yapizon, being breached in April. Reports have said North Korean hackers are suspected of stealing about $5m worth of funds
an Israeli crypto-currency trading company, CoinDash, reporting that $7m was stolen from investors in July after its website was breached and an initial coin offering's contact address altered

Who stands these losses?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:22 pm

Generally the individuals.

If you're sensible you will only have money on the exchanges (or any online wallet) whilst you're buying/selling. You then transfer the money to your own wallet stored on your own PC where, unless someone accesses your PC and knows your password (mine is 30+ random characters), it is almost impossible to hack.

People tend to lose the money becuase they leave the coins online rather than moving them to somewhere more secure.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:22 pm

Leisure wrote:"'

Who stands these losses?

No one can. it's unregulated!!!

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:27 pm

JohnMac wrote:I'm with you on that one, I have no desire to gamble my hard earned at this time of life in pursuit of Eldorado. Again I reiterate my best wishes go to those who wish to pursue it and I sincerely hope they manage to profit from it.

I retired early when given an opportunity and am fortunate to have fairly decent health, I do think if I had continued working my health and then possibly, life span, would have been affected. I don't need anything in reality, along with my wife I can say we are content as long as we can manage our monthly outgoings.

At this time of year I feel a much better person by giving a little to charity instead of wasting it on greeting cards for example.

Having loads of money is something that will not really alter my outlook on life but having said that, if my Premium Bonds ever stump up a prize then we're outta here! Hasta la Vista Baby

Health is wealth. But good luck on people securing future cash security because times really are a changing.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:23 pm

Leisure wrote:"Highly professional" hackers made off with around 4,700 Bitcoin from a leading mining service, a Bitcoin exchange has said.
The value of Bitcoin is currently extremely volatile, but at the time of writing, the amount stolen was worth approximately $80m.
The hacked service was NiceHash, a Slovenia-based mining exchange.
It said it was working hard to recover the Bitcoin for its users, adding: "Someone really wanted to bring us down."
The attack happened early on Wednesday, said NiceHash's chief executive Marko Kobal. Attackers accessed the company's systems at 01:18 CET (00:18 GMT). By 03:37 the hackers, whom the company believes were based outside the European Union, had begun stealing Bitcoin.
The theft comes as the price of Bitcoin continues to surge, dumbfounding experts and stoking concerns of a bubble.
High-stakes attacks like this are not uncommon, with several large breaches and thefts hitting Bitcoin and other related services over the past year.
NiceHash is a mining service, a company that pairs up people with spare computing power with those willing to pay to use it to mine for new Bitcoin.
'Forensic analysis'
Mr Kobal appeared on Facebook Live to address concerns about the hack.
"We have not abandoned you guys," he said.
He explained that an employee's computer was compromised in the attack. He added that "forensic analysis" involving local and international authorities was taking place, but did not expand on which specific agencies were involved when asked by the BBC.

Security issues involving Bitcoin and other related services are a frequent cause for concern for virtual currency traders.

Other recent controversies involving digital currencies include:

the firm behind digital currency Tether said that close to $31m (£23.4m) worth of its tokens were stolen
a "code bug" in Ethereum's digital wallets being blamed last month for freezing more than $150m worth of Ether, preventing investors from being able to cash out
a South Korean exchange, Bithumb, saying that one of its employee's PCs had been hacked in June. Several of its customers reported follow-up scam calls
another South Korean exchange, Yapizon, being breached in April. Reports have said North Korean hackers are suspected of stealing about $5m worth of funds
an Israeli crypto-currency trading company, CoinDash, reporting that $7m was stolen from investors in July after its website was breached and an initial coin offering's contact address altered

Who stands these losses?

Good info, Leisure.

So, we are all used to computers getting hacked. Some of us are buying bitcoin/cryptocurrencies. Most don't know a lot about this stuff. They give their "real" money to someone who deals in cryptocurrency and this guy says "I've got your "coins" in my computer. Then a little later "oops, sorry, my computer got hacked.... and your coins were stolen....sorry, again....I've not "abandoned you"....I'll try and get them back....." which just buys a little more time. Meanwhile crypto-guy is converting all the coins he was holding into "real" money .... and disappearing somewhere...

Too far fetched? It wouldn't be the first time....

And, why is bitcoin chasing upwards in "value" - because it's a bubble, because it has no underlying value, it's being chased upwards because more and more people are jumping on for the ride - and everyone seems to be confident that they will be able to get off before they personally have lost money. Two futures exchanges are listing futures in bitcoin, CBoE and CME. And, I hear they are pushing up the initial margin requirements.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:44 pm

Pushed the wrong button Friday night 11pm Eastern into Bitcoin instead of Litecoin, and it’s been off ever since, struggling to touch 16,000 and has been in the 14,000

So that’s me tied up with $1,500 there wondering whether to stop loss or ride it. I chose the latter, and we’re now 15 minutes away from Wall Street coming in for the first time with futures trades.

Markets are clueless as to what will happen in 15 minutes, it’s a full on debate slagging match between bulls and bears,,,,,, clearly I need a bull run as the big boys look for coins.....

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:48 am

Around $18,000 this morning.(BBC)

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:40 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Cash is disappearing and soon we will be a cashless society. Soon there will be no way to exchange money from one person to another without a corporate/government third party being involved, setting fees and making judgments on how you are spending your money or who you are spending it with.

Bitcoin allows me to send you digital money without any third party involvement, the network is neutral, anonymous and unbiased.

This is the thing I don't see ever happening because of the practicalities of it. If I'm (say) at Wetherby races and dig my frozen fingers into my pocket to find £2 to give to a bookmaker; and at the end of the race he generously gives me £12 back; both transactions are very quick. What will be the practicalities if cash is abolished, whether using government third parties or using bitcoins? And practicalities that don't involve expensive mobile phone contracts, for preference.)

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:19 pm

dsr wrote:This is the thing I don't see ever happening because of the practicalities of it. If I'm (say) at Wetherby races and dig my frozen fingers into my pocket to find £2 to give to a bookmaker; and at the end of the race he generously gives me £12 back; both transactions are very quick. What will be the practicalities if cash is abolished, whether using government third parties or using bitcoins? And practicalities that don't involve expensive mobile phone contracts, for preference.)

You don't need a contract to use your card on your phone, or you can just use your card itself. It's would be exactly the same as using your contactless card for buying a coffee except there would be a direct deposit back if you won.

Interesting example to as I would guess gambling has seen a huge shift from cash to online/contactless/card.
The only gambling adds you see these days are the ones pushing thier apps.

It sounds tin foil hat but governments and big business would love to get rid of cash.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:36 pm

dsr wrote:This is the thing I don't see ever happening because of the practicalities of it. If I'm (say) at Wetherby races and dig my frozen fingers into my pocket to find £2 to give to a bookmaker; and at the end of the race he generously gives me £12 back; both transactions are very quick. What will be the practicalities if cash is abolished, whether using government third parties or using bitcoins? And practicalities that don't involve expensive mobile phone contracts, for preference.)

It's more and more the case that the cashless transactions are quicker now though. Public transport is all about contactless rather than handing over cash and hoping they have change. Go to a bar and half of them will just press the button to activate the card reader in front of you rather than take cash and work out change.

Governments would love to eliminate cash, it would be the easiest thing for them to eliminate small scale tax evasion, selling stolen goods, etc.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:41 pm

CombatClaret wrote:You don't need a contract to use your card on your phone, or you can just use your card itself. It's would be exactly the same as using your contactless card for buying a coffee except there would be a direct deposit back if you won.

So Mr Bookie will be able to stick £12 onto my pay-as-you-go phone and it won't cost me any transaction charges or phone costs?

Presumably we'll need to carry spare phone batteries instead of cash. And God help society if the internet system goes down!

keith1879 · Post by **keith1879** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:53 pm

aggi wrote:It's more and more the case that the cashless transactions are quicker now though. Public transport is all about contactless rather than handing over cash and hoping they have change. Go to a bar and half of them will just press the button to activate the card reader in front of you rather than take cash and work out change.

Governments would love to eliminate cash, it would be the easiest thing for them to eliminate small scale tax evasion, selling stolen goods, etc.

But only if payment systems are open and transparent and conduct transactions in units which are universally trusted. I can't help thinking that Bitcoin (and similar) doesn't meet any of those requirements.

I return to a question I hinted at a few days ago. What is the point of Bitcoin "mining"? Does it actually achieve anything other than creating a new unit of something that has no intrinsic value (and at a huge cost in electricity apparently).

I'm a big fan of contactless card transactions - but I think the mobile phone payments have a way to go - they seem to be very slow from my observations of other people.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:55 pm

What century do you live in dsr?

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:28 pm

keith1879 wrote:But only if payment systems are open and transparent and conduct transactions in units which are universally trusted. I can't help thinking that Bitcoin (and similar) doesn't meet any of those requirements.

I return to a question I hinted at a few days ago. What is the point of Bitcoin "mining"? Does it actually achieve anything other than creating a new unit of something that has no intrinsic value (and at a huge cost in electricity apparently).

Bitcoin is very transparent, you can look at every transaction ever made on the public ledger. You know who isn't open and transparent, banks and businesses. See Paradise/Panama papers.

Mining also doubles as the processing power to process the transactions. So instead of the big bank computer you spread it out over thousands of smaller computers.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:36 pm

dsr wrote:So Mr Bookie will be able to stick £12 onto my pay-as-you-go phone and it won't cost me any transaction charges or phone costs?

Presumably we'll need to carry spare phone batteries instead of cash. And God help society if the internet system goes down!

Can't you just use a bank card?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:40 pm

keith1879 wrote:But only if payment systems are open and transparent and conduct transactions in units which are universally trusted. I can't help thinking that Bitcoin (and similar) doesn't meet any of those requirements.

I return to a question I hinted at a few days ago. What is the point of Bitcoin "mining"? Does it actually achieve anything other than creating a new unit of something that has no intrinsic value (and at a huge cost in electricity apparently).

I'm a big fan of contactless card transactions - but I think the mobile phone payments have a way to go - they seem to be very slow from my observations of other people.

In many ways Bitcoin is much more open. This is a series of transactions which anyone can view for instance https://blockchain.info/block/000000000 ... 073a50d1d9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As well as generating new coins, the miners also run the hardware which tracks and validates the transactions. Having many miners means that it is much more difficult to knock the system over as it is spread over many physical locations.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:30 pm

Hope some of you guys got into XRP as per my recommendation (post 17). Were low twenties (cents) and are mid forties (cents) now. Looking good to be $1-$2 by mid 2018. Read Ripple.com

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:03 pm

aggi wrote:Can't you just use a bank card?

No. Unless I'm missing something, putting money into my bank account would need more than a bank card. I'd need internet access.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:08 pm

dsr wrote:No. Unless I'm missing something, putting money into my bank account would need more than a bank card. I'd need internet access.

You can make payments back onto a bank card. Although I suspect that would fall afoul of current AML rules (although I imagine the rules would change in a cashless society).

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:10 pm

Just cashed out my initial investment, now playing for free

Still championing the technology and enough in the wallet to retire when it reaches £1mil

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:02 pm

All my brother in law wants to do is pay his subs to sportsmania! Lost in space!

Woonderbah · Post by **Woonderbah** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:50 am

Is there anyone else like me who reads this thread and think they've stumbled across a new language ?
I'm not money orientated at all and find it totally bemusing albeit interesting.
Personally, I also think it explains why, when I go to an away match I exit the train station and whatever town or city I'm in, all I see is betting shops, pawnbrokers and charity shops.
If it's your cup of tea I wish you success but I'll carry on just valuing what's in my pocket.

IAmAClaret · Post by **IAmAClaret** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:32 am

Has the Bitcoin bubble burst?

1 Bitcoin has lost £2,000 in 12 hours.