Thoughts of two Premier League managers on diving

[ClaretTony]

Pochettino: "Football is about trying to trick your opponent. When you do tactics, it is to try to trick the opponent. Twenty or thirty years ago, we all congratulated a player when he tricks the referee like this."

Allardyce: "You have to go down if there’s contact. You have to make the referee’s mind up. It’s hard for referees to give penalties, so if you make it look like it is a penalty, then it’s easier for him to give that decision. Too many penalties are not given by players standing up."

[randomclaret2]

Two cheeks of the same arse

[bumba]

Pochettino: "Football is about trying to trick your opponent. When you do tactics, it is to try to trick the opponent. Twenty or thirty years ago, we all congratulated a player when he tricks the referee like this."

Allardyce: "You have to go down if there’s contact. You have to make the referee’s mind up. It’s hard for referees to give penalties, so if you make it look like it is a penalty, then it’s easier for him to give that decision. Too many penalties are not given by players standing up."

Id give them both a two month football ban and massive fine for endorsing cheating

[Sidney1st]

Hopefully this has a negative effect for them in regards to the ref's views on both clubs.

It would be great to see Spurs and Everton get very little their way for the rest of the season.

[elwaclaret]

I don't like Fat Sam, too many referees will only give penalties if the player goes down. The only way to prevent cheating is for long bans and huge fines for clubs and managers for persistent offending. But the powers that be lack the balls to implement anything that could upset the "market leaders"

[cricketfieldclarets]

Its ********. And ruining the game. The sad thing is you actually understand where sam is coming from.

The only thing that would stop this is if the fa the premier league ad the refs came out and said they wont stand for it. But that wont happen.

Even on the panels including the refs they condone it.

Its not going to get better. And another reason im losing interest.

[Dyched]

For years and years we heard pundits/commentators etc say “anywhere else on the pitch its s foul, so whys it not a penalty?”

I honestly think managers have told players go down and if theres contact then you can. Imo its there right to. Because otherwise what is and not a penalty? A small trip on a fast winger like Lennon would be enough to bring him down. The same trip on Yaya Toure wont, but its still a foul so he’d have to “dive” to win it.

[Lord Beamish]

I think it's fair to say that the Spirit of the Game has evaporated from these two shysters.

[jtv]

Would be great to see fake penalties given against both Clubs. Their reactions would be interesting to say the least.

[BarstewardsEnquiry]

It's a cultural thing is cheating especially in South America and part of every day life such is the poverty, winning something by hook or by crook is normal. I remember that being said on tv at the time of Maradona's hand of God, the Argentinians couldn't understand why we were so honest.

[ClaretTony]

It's a cultural thing

Interesting thought - back in 2007 at the Turf in a Q&A, Jimmy Mac was asked what he thought about players going down trying to win penalties and did he think it was the number of foreign players coming into the game that was causing it.

His answer was - I used to do it, if I thought I could get a penalty I would go down.



Like most things, nothing has actually changed, we just see them now because of the TV pictures from every possible angle etc.

[houseboy]

So there we have it guys, it's official, cheating is supported by (at least some) managers. As someone has already basically said, why don't these two cheats now be fined and banned from the touchline for bringing the game into disrepute? And why don't people write to the BBC and Sky and tell them to stop their 'pundits' referring to it as 'simulation', thereby giving it some kind of legitimacy? It is cheating, pure and simple. The irony is they seem to have got rid of hard tackling that would have seen the likes of Bremner and Charlton (Jackie), Harris and Allardyce himself permanently banned, but do nothing about the cynical 'winning' of penalties and getting fellow pros sent off.
Is it referred to as simulation now because it is politically incorrect to call someone a cheat? One other thing and a genuine question: does anyone know of any other sport where cheating is so openly and obviously allowed and condoned? I can't think of one but someone else may know different.

[Chobulous]

One other thing and a genuine question: does anyone know of any other sport where cheating is so openly and obviously allowed and condoned? I can't think of one but someone else may know different.

Any sport where an Australian takes part

[Spijed]

Has there actually been a time in football when players didn't cheat?

[duncandisorderly]

Has there actually been a time in football when players didn't cheat?

Depends on how you quantify 'cheating', but with regards to tackles and the reactions of modern day players then I'd say only 20 years ago.

Cheating to score a goal has probably been around since 1888.
Cheating to win a free kick probably only since 1998. (hyperbole)
I'm not sure when it became the norm to take a defensive throw in 20 yards further forward, or the goal keeper taking a free kick that should have been on the touchline 20 yards further inside.

[RocketLawnChair]

Pochettino: "Football is about trying to trick your opponent. When you do tactics, it is to try to trick the opponent. Twenty or thirty years ago, we all congratulated a player when he tricks the referee like this."

Allardyce: "You have to go down if there’s contact. You have to make the referee’s mind up. It’s hard for referees to give penalties, so if you make it look like it is a penalty, then it’s easier for him to give that decision. Too many penalties are not given by players standing up."

Potchettino should be banned. He gives some half arsed explanation about tricking the opponent but openly admits really its about tricking the referee the independent person the arbitrator of the rules and not actually the opponent. That's condoning cheating.

Allardyce I actually think as a point. Take away the Penalty scenario and rewind back to last Wednesday and Barnes disallowed goal at Newcastle. Barnes does push Lascelles so its a foul, not enough to knock Lascelles over but still a foul. If Lascelles had stayed on his feet despite being pushed that goal would have been allowed to stand and I think that's Allardyces point the exaggeration is to try and make the refs mind up.

[quoonbeatz]

"morally, there is no difference between a dive and a stepover."

[scouseclaret]

I don’t think those within the game have any idea just how ****** off the vast majority of fans have become with the diving issue.

[Spijed]

I don’t think those within the game have any idea just how ****** off the vast majority of fans have become with the diving issue.

Suppose it depends if goes for or against you. I doubt any Leicester city fans were that bothered with Jamie Vardy diving when they won the title.

Likewise, many Burnley supporters were very defensive towards Scott Arfield when he got booked for a dive against Everton.

Also, as CT says, it seems to be the case that Jimmy Mac had no qualms about diving given the opportunity.

[TheFamilyCat]

It's the rules that are ****** up. The first section, specifically the "reckless or excessive force" bit is I think what we would all accept:

Direct free kick

A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
charges
jumps at
kicks or attempts to kick
pushes
strikes or attempts to strike (including head-butt)
tackles or challenges
trips or attempts to trip
If an offence involves contact it is penalised by a direct free kick or penalty kick.

The next bit is where the problem lies:

A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences:
handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within their penalty area)
holds an opponent
impedes an opponent with contact
spits at an opponent

This is where the "contact is a foul" argument comes from. Whether that contact has of course actually impeded is what causes the exaggeration/ simulation/ diving because players, as BFS says, are making sure the ref knows there's been contact and that the contact has impeded them enough to fall arse over tit.

Get rid of the line "impedes an opponent with contact" and the problem solves itself in my opinion.

[Quickenthetempo]

There was no bigger cheating incident than our penalty against Swansea last year. Nobody give a 2nd thought to telling the referee it was Vokes that handballed it.

[turfytopper]

This is easily sorted but it would take some balls.

If there is contact and the player feeling this contact follows Sam's advice. Where the referee believes this to be the case(or VAR) then an indirect free kick should be awarded to the defending team and a yellow card shown for simulation.

The laws of the game already allow for this, Let me explain. In the above example 2 offences have been committed - contact before playing the ball however slight is a foul (though it would be ridiculous to stop play and award a direct free kick in many cases). The 2bd offence is the simulation which is unsporting behavior and a yellow card must be shown. Law states where there is 2 offences occurring the most serious of the two should be punished - hence the dive.

[Walnutwillie]

No more penalties . Just st a free kick where the foul ( trick) is committed
Anything inside the Six yard box given as a penalty only

[Rowls]

The FA should be asking them to "explain their comments" like they do when somebody criticises a referee.

It's disgraceful from both of them.

[houseboy]

Any sport where an Australian takes part

Very true, except for Aussie Rules Football. There can't be any cheating in that because there don't appear to be any rules. Which makes the name of the game a bit of a misnomer really. Actually I do love it though and they get some tremendous crowds.

[jlup1980]

There was no bigger cheating incident than our penalty against Swansea last year. Nobody give a 2nd thought to telling the referee it was Vokes that handballed it.

Is this why we're getting nothing this season? Are they trying to even up one bad decision that actually went our way?!!

[Jimmymaccer]

Totally true re Vokes at Swansea, but I just think it’s got to the stage where the first thought of any player has progressed from rolling around on the floor ten times to now the Alli dive, and the game is becoming a joke........I don’t mind the occasional “he got away with it” because we all love that after match debate but it’s getting beyond a joke.....maybe they should do away with the Penalty area and you just get a pen if it’s within the 6 yard box......then 5heyd stay on their feet!

[KRBFC]

At least they're honest, every single club does it, including ourselves.... sadly it's almost part of the game and accepted. Like it's all well and good Dyche coming out at not condoning diving but Barnes does it every week to win cheap freekicks? Gray did it at Reading to win a pen? Arfield dived 2 weeks ago outside the area? There was a video of Bardsley diving?

[TVC15]

We should not be too surprised about the thoughts of these 2 managers.

One was brought up in Argentina - hardly the football bedrock of fair play and integrity

The other is corrupt off the pitch so why would he not advocate cheating on the pitch ?

The only real surprise here is that they both chose to go public with their views - maybe it is them being honest or maybe they just don`t realise that most football fans would love diving to be eradicated from the game. Or maybe they are both right and fans are not as bothered about this as some of us.

[The Enclosure]

The only way to stop it is to punish the club not just the player....these cheats are costing teams like Burnley ie.unfashionable smaller clubs points throughout the season and it is not inconceivable that it could relegate them .
Punish the players offending club by deducting say one point and give the player a one match ban for first offence and more for persistent diving.
I believe this would soon stop the cheats.

[Spijed]

The only way to stop it is to punish the club not just the player....these cheats are costing teams like Burnley ie.unfashionable smaller clubs points throughout the season and it is not inconceivable that it could relegate them .
Punish the players offending club by deducting say one point and give the player a one match ban for first offence and more for persistent diving.
I believe this would soon stop the cheats.

Why is it costing Burnley when our players cheat just as much?

Vokes v Swansea and Leicester last season and Arfield v Everton this season.

[TVC15]

Why is it costing Burnley when our players cheat just as much?

Vokes v Swansea and Leicester last season and Arfield v Everton this season.

2 incidents in 12 months is hardly "just as much".

I do not think for one minute Dyche is a hypocrite - he is not saying one thing to the media and then telling his players to do another thing. Once the players cross the white line he cannot control everything they do. For all we know he may have took internal action or spoken to both after the incidents.

If any of our players did this kind of thing more than once or twice I would be surprised.

As for those saying that Barnes is cheating constantly I don`t agree with this - he is using his body to get in front of defenders and they are invariably giving him a nudge or jumping on his back when Barnes get a jump on them. A lot of centre forwards who are not 6 foot plus have done this - Shearer for example got so many fouls. The alternative is that he ends up losing 99% of headers against a 6 ft 4 centre back.

[Erasmus]

Vokes versus Swansea wasn't cheating though. It was just a very bad mistake by the referee. He could have said it was him who handballed it but that is a bit different from deliberate cheating.

I think the problem here is that managers coming out like this make it is easier to drag the cheating out of the gutter and make it legitimate 'trickiness'. It's actually really sleazy and would not be tolerated in any other profession. It really is about time something serious was done about it. Like many others here, I find this sort of behaviour by players is ruining my interest in football; I just find it sickening the way players act.

I also think we need to at at least modify the penalty rule. Goals like this are often scored without the team creating any form of goal scoring opening. Like Glenn Murray for Brighton, in the corner of the box, no danger of scoring, sticks his leg between Tarkowski's, falls over and that's how he's created a brilliant goal scoring opportunity. It defeats the whole object of a football match.

[KRBFC]

2 incidents in 12 months is hardly "just as much".

I do not think for one minute Dyche is a hypocrite - he is not saying one thing to the media and then telling his players to do another thing. Once the players cross the white line he cannot control everything they do. For all we know he may have took internal action or spoken to both after the incidents.

If any of our players did this kind of thing more than once or twice I would be surprised.

As for those saying that Barnes is cheating constantly I don`t agree with this - he is using his body to get in front of defenders and they are invariably giving him a nudge or jumping on his back when Barnes get a jump on them. A lot of centre forwards who are not 6 foot plus have done this - Shearer for example got so many fouls. The alternative is that he ends up losing 99% of headers against a 6 ft 4 centre back.

Barnes is clever at winning freekicks, he backs up then falls when the defender either moves away or gives him a slight nudge. Could Barnes stay on his feet? Yes, so he's diving by the opinion of diving by many on here. At Newcastle he nudged into Yedlin and jumped to the floor in the box, clear diving. Bardsley dived the other week, Gray dived at Reading to win a penalty, Arfield dived to win a free kick against Liverpool, there are many more examples where our players could stay on their feet but don't.

Do you blame them? absolutely not, the whole footballing world is doing it and we'd be stupid not to because we'd be at a disadvantage. The hypocrisy comes in when Dyche is seemingly so against players ''diving'' against us yet we also do it. Where do you draw the line? personally I think players are in their rights to go down once fouled regardless of how much contact there is so long as there is contact. The going down shouldn't affect the decision because the foul would've occurred before the player hits the floor. The contact is what determines whether it's a foul or not, not the players reaction.

[JohnMac]

Anyone going down before contact is made is a cheat.
Anyone initiating contact by putting their leg or foot into another player is a cheat.
Anyone diving without any contact being made is a cheat.

Sort the law out to alow a reveiw of incidents after the event and then ban cheats regardless of if they were booked or not.

Will the FA/Premier League do it?

Will they hell.

[Erasmus]

KRBFC, not all contact is a foul. Minimal contact is not a foul, it's a contact sport. Furthermore, it's a question of who instigates the contact. If a forward sees an outstretched leg and deliberately runs into it, then there is contact but it is not a foul. We may be guilty on occasions but you can't overlook matters of degree; it's not black or white as you seem to suggest. I am sure our players do it sometimes, but by no means are we one of the worst. We certainly haven't won penalties through diving.

[beddie]

I still don't understand how Allardyce wasn't banned from managing in football for a minimum of at least two years after he (allegedly) advised fictitious businessmen how to circumvent the rules surrounding third-party ownership of players whilst being the England Manager.

[CnBtruntru]

Pochettino: "Football is about trying to trick your opponent. When you do tactics, it is to try to trick the opponent. Twenty or thirty years ago, we all congratulated a player when he tricks the referee like this."

Allardyce: "You have to go down if there’s contact. You have to make the referee’s mind up. It’s hard for referees to give penalties, so if you make it look like it is a penalty, then it’s easier for him to give that decision. Too many penalties are not given by players standing up."

Ones a nail the other a plank.

[TVC15]

I still don't understand how Allardyce wasn't banned from managing in football for a minimum of at least two years after he (allegedly) advised fictitious businessmen how to circumvent the rules surrounding third-party ownership of players whilst being the England Manager.

Same reason he wasn't banned when caught red handed taking backhanders by Panorama whilst he was manager of Bolton.

Same reason Redknapp was not banned.

Same reason hardly anyone in football has been banned for corruption.

And that reason is - most of the FA are just as bad !

[boatshed bill]

having played in various leagues (about level 8-9) I'd say there has always been an element of cheating, deliberate handball was rife, as was body-checking and tripping opponents.
No diving for penalties though.