Mighty night for Northwest football

[Lancasterclaret]

Right, so if Man City have plastic fans, then what the **** are Wigans?

Just a smaller version of City

Still, pleased for Paul Cook who was a brilliant player for us.

[mkmel]

Possession
Home17%
Away83%

Shots
Home4
Away29

Shots on Target
Home2
Away5

Corners
Home0
Away15

Fouls
Home11
Away6

[Vegas Claret]

Those who know me know how big a Paul Cook fan I was when he was at Burnley. Really pleased for him.

Next in line once Sir Sean of Dyche leaves us ?

[dsr]

Whilst I agree the fan shouldn’t be there, I’m not sure saying something to him is a ‘threatening manner’ nor does it warrant Aguero trying to bust the lads face within an elbow/punch.

If the knobhead fan goes for the punch first a la Westwood and the horsebotherer then fair play. Aside that, we’re looking at Cantona territory with fans gobbling off and players attacking them. Apart from Aguero wont be banned for 8 months, of course.

Wigan fan went looking for trouble, found it. I can see that point that you should be allowed to be a complete somethinghead for as long as you want at whoever you want with no fear of retribution; but if you go up to a fit young man and start gobbing off, you needn't be surprised to get lamped.

There are lots of parallel cases, both involving violence or not. Does a man who forgets to lock his Jaguar and leaves the keys in the ignition, deserve to have it wrecked? Of course not. Is he an idiot who was asking for trouble? Of course.

[mkmel]

Fans having a go at the police
Aguero hitting fans

What a bellend of a club

I despise Man City with their Here's a couple of billion pounds go win us things and their cheating with the Fair Play Regulations

Well you won't be winning the FA Cup this season!

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm sure that Darthlaw has a season ticket at Old Trafford

its the only possible explanation for thinking the Aguero thing is the same as the Cantona thing.

[Dyched]

I despise Man City with their Here's a couple of billion pounds go win us things and their cheating with the Fair Play Regulations

Well you won't be winning the FA Cup this season!

I dont mind that. They can spend as much money as they want.

Its their slimey manager and fickle fans I cant stand. Hes a terrible loser, classes. A lot of them are but the likes of Jose, Sir Alex even Warnock know they are. They’ll rightly agree they are bastards. But not Pep, he’s a sneaky little ****. His Barca team had bad attitude and so do City.

[ClaretTony]

Next in line once Sir Sean of Dyche leaves us ?

Lot of water to pass under the bridge before we are likely to be looking for a new manager but Cooky has done a decent job wherever he’s been albeit in the lower two divisions.

[Darthlaw]

I'm sure that Darthlaw has a season ticket at Old Trafford

its the only possible explanation for thinking the Aguero thing is the same as the Cantona thing.

Ah yes, the old Darthlaw is a Man U fan chestnut.

Fan gobs off at footballer, footballer tries to hit fan. No link whatsoever, clearly. Would you prefer I use Patrice Evra instead or is it a problem he played for Man U once upon a time?

Methinks Lancaster could be a city fan by not seeing the blatant link.

[Lancasterclaret]

You are right, its exactly the same.

The Aguero one is different from the Cantona one, which is different from the Evra one, which is different from the Aguero one.

You don't like City and Guardiola. I get it. You like Man United and Mourinho. I get it.

You certainly are not the first person in here to see something that they want to see, rather than what actually happened.

[Darthlaw]

You are right, its exactly the same.

The Aguero one is different from the Cantona one, which is different from the Evra one, which is different from the Aguero one.

You don't like City and Guardiola. I get it. You like Man United and Mourinho. I get it.

You certainly are not the first person in here to see something that they want to see, rather than what actually happened.

Different as in each footballer hit a different fan or what? Did a footballer hit a fan on all three occasions or not? Either way, whether it be a footballer or not the individual taking the abuse can choose to give abuse back, laugh it off or basically try and hit the abuser. Each of the examples chose the latter option.

As for what you 'get', I'll clear it up for you:

I don't like City - They deserve to be back in the doldrums of football but have been bailed out by Sheikh al-Egg and basically represent everything which is wrong with modern football.

I think Guardiola is a very talented coach, he may be a sore loser but find me a winner who takes defeat well. What I don't like is the fact Guardiola is labeled as some sort of Demi-god of football. He hasn't proven he can do it with lesser teams or with lesser budgets. I've said time and time again as much.

Yet again, I'll clear up the Man U link. I come from a Man U supporting family who originate from Urmston (rare for United fans to be so close to their club). As a result I was forced to watch more than my fair share during the 90's of Man U games due to their coverage on Sky Sports and the like. Most importantly for me, I watched that Man U side hold off Blackburn Rovers time and time again from success which, as a Burnley fan, was great to see. As a result I'm not going to hold the irrational vitriol that some fans hold for Man U. I apologise if that upsets those fans.

As for Mourinho - the guy is a d1ck. He's won a champions league with two different clubs (one fairly impressively being Porto), league titles in three different leagues and various cups. Ergo unfortunately a talented and successful d1ck but still a d1ck.

Do you 'get' it now?

As for seeing something I wanted to see, did you miss the point where Aguero hit the fan? You tell me what actually happened.

[TVC15]

Does this result make the Donkey Lashers the best team in Europe ?

[Lancasterclaret]

Someone has already summed it up for me already just above your first post.

Cantona went looking for the fan, and Evra certainly did! I'm 100% sure that Aguero would have just walked off the pitch if the fan hadn't leapt in front of him after pitch invading.

I've nowt against Man United, or any particular love for Man City, or any other premier league team (apart from us). United under Ferguson were up there with this city team in their ability to dominate the opposition.

I don't see the difference between any of them spending a fortune and winning things, and I think myself privileged that such coaches as Klopp, Guardiola, Mourinho and Conte manage in the same division as my team do and I've never got the dislike for modern football as for me its always been the same. The big clubs spend a fortune and whinge when they don't win, whether that be United or City or anybody else.

And Whenever I hear a fan of one of the other big five on the radio whinging about Citys spending, I just sigh and wonder why they can completely ignore what their club does. It just hasn't done it as well as City have this year.

QUICK EDIT - and i'll always be massively in debt to United for restricting Rovers to just one premier league title when they had the money.

[Burnley Ace]

Cantona attacked a fan, in the stand, who wasn’t physically threatening him.

Aguera hit out at a fan who had come into pitch (criminal offence) threatened him (criminal offence) and his response was proportionate.

Who thinks that’s the same?

[dsr]

Looking at the picures again this morning, it looks like the "fan" came and put his hands on Aguero from behind him. What's a proportionate response to that? What would any of us do if someone (friend or foe) comes at us unexpectedly?

[Darthlaw]

Cantona went looking for the fan and Evra certainly did! I'm 100% sure that Aguero would have just walked off the pitch if the fan hadn't leapt in front of him after pitch invading.

I'm pretty sure neither Cantona nor Evra just launched into fans who were minding their own business. All three fans gobbed off at the footballers in question however one was in the stand and two were pitch invaders.

I'm also 100% sure that all three would have walked off had they not been goaded by some knobhead from the crowd but alas all three reacted with violence.

Let me be clear, I'm not defending any of these fans. What I am saying is that these footballers have the option to walk away, give some verbal back (a proportionate response) or laugh it off as you go home, count your money and have a go on your supermodel girlfriend. Christ, he could even shove the guy away but he went for the elbow in the face.

Aguero, firstly trying to elbow then chasing after him to have a fight is not a proportionate response and as a role model he needs to be punished for it.

[Darthlaw]

Looking at the picures again this morning, it looks like the "fan" came and put his hands on Aguero from behind him. What's a proportionate response to that? What would any of us do if someone (friend or foe) comes at us unexpectedly?

Look at the video rather than the pictures. He approaches from the front and gives Aguero some verbal. Some may argue trying to smash the guy in the face is proportionate to that but I disagree.

[Burnley Ace]

Dartlaw - attacking someone who “gobs off” at you from the stand isn’t a proportionate response. A preemptive strike at someone who has encroached onto the pitch and threatened you is.

[Lancasterclaret]

I don't think Aguero should have reacted, but he's the only one who hasn't initiated the contact.

The Wigan fan is lucky that he didn't get absolutely flattened as I think that as the Blackburn pitch invader found, footballers are actually incredibly strong, even if they don't look that strong.

[dsr]

Look at the video rather than the pictures. He approaches from the front and gives Aguero some verbal. Some may argue trying to smash the guy in the face is proportionate to that but I disagree.

How do you elbow someone who is stood in front of you? (And it was video I was watching moving pictures is what I meant.)

Monica Seles was approached on court by a "fan", and if she had taken pre-emptive action her career might not have been ruined. In the majority of cases when a sportsman is approached by someone with no right to be there, no harm will come of it; but I'm very much inclined to sympathise with the sportsman who fears the worst and takes pre-emptive action because he doesn't want to finish like Seles.

[Darthlaw]

Dartlaw - attacking someone who “gobs off” at you from the stand isn’t a proportionate response. A preemptive strike at someone who has encroached onto the pitch and threatened you is.

Laughable. Should Aguero have taken preemptive action and chinned the kid who encroached onto the pitch,'threatening' him too ?

[Lancasterclaret]

They are all different, but both Cantona and Evra went looking for trouble and actually left the field of play to punch/karate kick fans.

Aguero is walking off the pitch when he gets a fan in his face.

How is it the same? Is there a different version around we haven't seen?

[quoonbeatz]

footballers should be allowed to tw@t fans who get in their face like that.

[TractorFace]

Cantona attacked a fan, in the stand, who wasn’t physically threatening him.

Aguera hit out at a fan who had come into pitch (criminal offence) threatened him (criminal offence) and his response was proportionate.

Who thinks that’s the same?

Only idiots and Rags.

[Darthlaw]

footballers should be allowed to tw@t fans.

Edited to match the opinions of some on this board.

[dsr]

Edited to match the opinions of some on this board.

Who on this board do you ascribe that opinion to? Give quotes if it helps.

[Darthlaw]

Here's one:

I'm very much inclined to sympathise with the sportsman who fears the worst and takes pre-emptive action

I'm just wondering where they draw the line. The teenager who approaches is ok but the sportsman can take preemptive action against the adult because he was 'threatening' (even though none of us know what was said or if it was in fact 'threatening' Aguero). Was the knobhead fan 'threatening' Aguero as he walked past? More likely some numpty abuse which Aguero took exception to.

Sorry it took me a while to respond, some fella walked into our yard at work which is off limits to the general public. I know he was only a lost walker but I chinned the fecker (preemptively) because he approached me in a matter I deemed to be 'threatening'. No harm done.

[tim_noone]

Looking at the picures again this morning, it looks like the "fan" came and put his hands on Aguero from behind him. What's a proportionate response to that? What would any of us do if someone (friend or foe) comes at us unexpectedly?

Well if that's the case and there was contact why didn't aguero go down....?

[Spijed]

I'm just wondering where they draw the line.

By making it illegal to enter the field of play unless in exceptional circumstances.

[Darthlaw]

By making it illegal to enter the field of play unless in exceptional circumstances.

Which is correct. The question is how many have / will receive convictions for last night if the letter of the law is pursued.

NOTE
There are reports going round that the fan has spat at Aguero. If that's the case, then for me he is exonerated of any blame. He's not preemptively gone at someone, he has reacted to an attack and a despicable one at that. Exactly the same as that numpty who tried to punch Westwood at deadwood.

I do maintain, however, that unfortunately footballers need a thick skin against verbals and certainly never warrant a preemptive attack on someone as some have suggested on this thread.

[quoonbeatz]

i thought it was fairly obvious he hadn't done anything pre-emptively - if he was of that inclination, he'd have belted the first fan who got near him but he didn't seem too bothered about being surrounded. it was clearly just that one biff he took exception to.

[Quickenthetempo]

Looked to get a bit tasty last night with a few fan clashes and throwing stuff.

There's a video going round of a City going on the pitch to confront Wigan fans and got put on his arse quite easily. Where's the Wolves fan when you need him?

[Burnley Ace]

Laughable. Should Aguero have taken preemptive action and chinned the kid who encroached onto the pitch,'threatening' him too ?

I think you should brush up on you understanding of the law on self defence, you’re just looking stupid now. You should start with s76 Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008. Then you can look at R v Deana 2 CR App R 75 so you understand what a preemptive strike is. Then read Palmer v R (1971) AC 814 to learn about proportionality- and I’ve taught you all this for free!

[Darthlaw]

I think you should brush up on you understanding of the law on self defence, you’re just looking stupid now. You should start with s76 Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008. Then you can look at R v Deana 2 CR App R 75 so you understand what a preemptive strike is. Then read Palmer v R (1971) AC 814 to learn about proportionality- and I’ve taught you all this for free!

Ignoring the fact I've said that if the numpty spat at him, it was neither preemptive nor excessive, teach me about the proportionality of chinning someone who has 'threatened' you by using harsh language whilst walking past(as we initially believed), Sherlock.

Teach me how a jury would deem violent action towards an individual shouting abuse in passing to be a proportionate level of force.

Finally have a look in the mirror before you start saying I look silly.

[TVC15]

Wigan fan was an idiot - he got exactly what he deserved.

Not sure anybody on this messageboard would be outraged if the Blackburn fan who ran on the pitch towards our players was punched in the nose by a Burnley player. We'd already have a statue outside the Turf !

Don't see any difference between the Blackburn fan and the Wigan one - firstly they should not be on the pitch but let's excuse that given the manor of the victory. More importantly WTF was he doing confronting an opposition player when he's supposed to be congratulating his own players ?

[dsr]

Ignoring the fact I've said that if the numpty spat at him, it was neither preemptive nor excessive, teach me about the proportionality of chinning someone who has 'threatened' you by using harsh language whilst walking past(as we initially believed), Sherlock.

Teach me how a jury would deem violent action towards an individual shouting abuse in passing to be a proportionate level of force.

Finally have a look in the mirror before you start saying I look silly.

I haven't seen any evidence that the abuse was "in passing" - it looks to me like Aguero was the target.

The law does not say that you have to wait to be hit before you hit back. If you have reasonable belief that you are about to be attacked, you can throw the first punch. Maybe to you it is blindingly obvious that the abusive "fan" was no threat whatsoever, and Aguero should have known he was entirely harmless; but I suspect that from Aguero's perspective it wasn't so clear cut.

As I said before, Monica Seles. Sportsmen have a reason to be wary. How badly hurt was the "fan", anyway? Has Aguero's alleged overreaction caused him permanent harm?

[Burnley Ace]

Calm down! You’ve ignored everything I wrote because if you had read the law and the cases your rather simplistic questions would have been answered! A little hint - it’s all about what was said, the circumstances and what Augero perceived, only then can you determine whether that belief was reasonably held and then whether his response was proportionate.

Case law has already established that’s words alone will suffice. Now go and do some reading, then respond and I will try and help you understand.

Another bit of free advice - if you ever do get arrested, ask for a solicitor.

[Darthlaw]

Another bit of free advice - if you ever do get arrested, ask for a solicitor.

In fairness, I don't go around thumping folk who look or speak to me in a way I don't like, trying to pass it off as threatening behaviour, so it's unlikely. In the unfortunate event I need legal advice, if you could kindly provide your details and legal credentials, I'll ensure I avoid asking you.

As for DSR, if you want to give Monica Seles as the example feel free to point out the weapon which the fan was holding to 'threaten' Aguero.

Now apparently Aguero has said the fan gave him verbals before spitting at him, so he reacted. I suspect we'll never find out whether he was 'threatened' by the abuse enough to defend himself or reacting to such a deplorable act, so there's little point debating it anymore.

[aggi]

I believe this is known as the Steven Gerrard defence.

[Burnley Ace]

Jesus wept you aren’t going read it are you ok, in you little scenario if the man who had come onto the pitch approached SA and in a aggressive drunken manner had shouted something like “I’m going to gut you like a ******* kipper, you Argie ******* killed my dad in the Falklands” then if SA perceived immediate unlawful violence and that belief, given the circumstances was reasonably held, then it would be lawful for him to use a preemptive strike to defend himself. Doesn’t matter if he was spat at or hit first.

Don’t worry about my credentials you wouldn’t be able to afford me anyway. The Duty Solicitor is free though.

[dsr]

As for DSR, if you want to give Monica Seles as the example feel free to point out the weapon which the fan was holding to 'threaten' Aguero.

If Aguero's defence is that he feared for his safety, he doesn't have to prove presence of a weapon. His defence would be that he had reasonable grounds for believing that he might have had a weapon.

[Darthlaw]

you wouldn’t be able to afford me anyway.

Ha ha ha. That’s cute.

[Burnley Ace]

Ha ha ha. That’s cute.

And true.

[Darthlaw]

Most folk can afford ‘where there’s blame there’s a claim’ legal representation, which I suspect is your level. I bet you do own a lovely £4K watch though.

So, congratulations on impressing an image of you being conceited whilst trying (very poorly) to paint me as some kind of pauper, however I’m bored of this thread seen as you have dragged the debate to this, so I won’t be responding any further.

[Rileybobs]

If Aguero was assaulted as reported then I presume his retaliation would be considered self-defence.

[Burnley Ace]

Most folk can afford ‘where there’s blame there’s a claim’ legal representation, which I suspect is your level. I bet you do own a lovely £4K watch though.

So, congratulations on impressing an image of you being conceited whilst trying (very poorly) to paint me as some kind of pauper, however I’m bored of this thread seen as you have dragged the debate to this, so I won’t be responding any further.

Oh you do love showing your ignorance (and arrogance) Why didn’t take a bit of friendly advice and take the time to learn something? A 4K watch - is that aspirational for you?

[holdyourfire]

Looks like those two have called a truce. Back to the game.did anyone pick up on the big eared crisp fairy,saying(well citeh have been beaten,by WIGAN TOWN)?

[FactualFrank]

Oh you do love showing your ignorance (and arrogance) Why didn’t take a bit of friendly advice and take the time to learn something? A 4K watch - is that aspirational for you?

The person who came out with the 4k watch in the Clarets Mad days, although I've not seen him in a while, I used to play poker with - and he was the best player in Lancashire. He did actually have the watch and a **** hot car!

[ontario claret]

The new Northwest Derby: Bury v. Horse-Botherers.