Labour - either very confident or very stupid

[AndrewJB]

I nearly stopped reading at " Thornberry is first rate ", as for Diane Abbott, jesus wept ! If you're impressed by Angela Rayner, then you need your bumps felt... McDonnell has a sharp mind, but is an un-reconstructed Trot, preaching street anarchy and bully-boy protests...

The sooner the pro Labour electoral bias is eliminated by implementing the Boundary Commission changes the better.....I'm no particular fan of the Conservatives, but I have seen the far-left in action and it's not pretty...

If Labour are 'far left' as you put it, with what words do you describe parties that advocate the abolition of private property, or ending the free market?

Angela Rayner, yes she's great. Working class girl now an MP. I'd say our democracy is better served with more ordinary people getting into parliament. She, and the others have all sunk their teeth into their areas. Like I say, judge them once their properly in power.

[Clarets4me]

If Labour are 'far left' as you put it, with what words do you describe parties that advocate the abolition of private property, or ending the free market?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/201 ... corbynism/

McDonnell has called for the entire current political system to be smashed, with violent demonstrations on the streets, sat smiling when activists on the Wirrel called for a female Tory MP to be lynched, and was booted off the old GLC by Ken Livingston, of all people, for his extremist views..

[AndrewJB]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/201 ... corbynism/

McDonnell has called for the entire current political system to be smashed, with violent demonstrations on the streets, sat smiling when activists on the Wirrel called for a female Tory MP to be lynched, and was booted off the old GLC by Ken Livingston, of all people, for his extremist views..

Of course the Telegraph is going to call Corbyn “extreme” as their billionaire owners are going to pay more tax under his government. But it doesn’t make it so. When you describe some thing as “far left” or “extreme” then it’s reasonable to think it difficult to be more left - but this is not whatsoever true. In fact the policies put forward by Corbyn are about the same as Germany’s centre right parties. You’ll find out soon enough once he becomes PM.

[SammyBoy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/201 ... corbynism/

McDonnell has called for the entire current political system to be smashed, with violent demonstrations on the streets, sat smiling when activists on the Wirrel called for a female Tory MP to be lynched, and was booted off the old GLC by Ken Livingston, of all people, for his extremist views..

We're doomed, doomed I tell ya!

[Damo]

Yeah, he's not that far left. I mean, I haven't even heard him mention gulags yet

[nil_desperandum]

Idiotic comments again from Boris Johnson on Radio 4 Today this morning, likening the NI border problem to that of the London congestion zone.
Obviously beyond his comprehension that the congestion cameras only monitor the registration plates of vehicles passing through, not what goods they are carrying, their value etc.
How could this satisfy WTO rules?
Why do so many people listen to this total buffoon?

[AndrewJB]

[quote="Damo"]Yeah, he's not that far left. I mean, I haven't even heard him mention gulags yet[/quote

Going off her record as Home Secretary and PM, you're more likely to get gulags under Theresa May.

[Guich]

Of course the Telegraph is going to call Corbyn “extreme” as their billionaire owners are going to pay more tax under his government. But it doesn’t make it so. When you describe some thing as “far left” or “extreme” then it’s reasonable to think it difficult to be more left - but this is not whatsoever true. In fact the policies put forward by Corbyn are about the same as Germany’s centre right parties. You’ll find out soon enough once he becomes PM.

The failure to grasp the simple fiscal concept that putting taxes up too far always leads to tax revenues falling is a common problem on the left.
The sad truth is that in the event of a left-wing administration the rich and affluent just carry on moving their money while the working class and impoverished always suffer more.

Not to say idealism (in the young) isn't a good thing, but you can't just tell people to pay more tax, you need to make it worth their while.

[Chobulous]

Going off her record as Home Secretary and PM, you're more likely to get gulags under Theresa May.

I'm definitely no supporter of the Tories but I'm a bit mystified by this comment. I saw no evidence of enforced deportation to labour camps under TM's stewardship of the Home Office nor any hint that they may be introduced so maybe you would care to explain your "reasoning".

[UpTheBeehole]

I'm definitely no supporter of the Tories but I'm a bit mystified by this comment. I saw no evidence of enforced deportation to labour camps under TM's stewardship of the Home Office nor any hint that they may be introduced so maybe you would care to explain your "reasoning".

Theresa May just keeps them in camps for indefinite periods, leading to suicides instead.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featu ... 01287.html

[Sidney1st]

May does it or the system that needs over hauling does it?

Would you rather we left illegal immigrants free to roam the streets?
Admittedly it took far to long to detain him considering that bloke got here in 2002.

[Chobulous]

Theresa May just keeps them in camps for indefinite periods, leading to suicides instead.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featu ... 01287.html

I agree that is outrageous and needs to be rectified but it is not in the same league as mass deportations to forced labour camps.

[Sidney1st]

I agree that is outrageous and needs to be rectified but it is not in the same league as mass deportations to forced labour camps.

It is if you don't like the Tories / May.

[Lancasterclaret]

I saw no evidence of enforced deportation to labour camps under TM's stewardship of the Home Office nor any hint that they may be introduced so maybe you would care to explain your "reasoning".

I'm sorry, but when and where is Corbyn going to send people to the gulag?

I can't see it in the manifesto. I can't even see it in the Daily Mail. Do you have a source?

[Sidney1st]

Eh?
@Lancaster

[Chobulous]

I'm sorry, but when and where is Corbyn going to send people to the gulag?

I can't see it in the manifesto. I can't even see it in the Daily Mail. Do you have a source?

I haven't said that either so I don't need to quote a source. Read what I posted. I was responding to AndrewJB's assertion that TM's record as Home Secretary and PM meant that she was likely to be setting up the gulags.
Still haven't got a response from AJB by the way.

[Lancasterclaret]

Unless I'm missing something, the idea that any of our political parties would send anyone to gulags is frankly preposterous.

Be that May or Corbyn.

[Lancasterclaret]

Right, sorry Chobulous

[Damo]

[RingoMcCartney]

Agent Cob has proven this week he is not only a traitor to his country but also working class voters too. Not the middle class metroplitan luvvies who so adore him
But how would this London ideologue know about the working classes? Answer he wouldn't. He's a sham.

The last Labour leader that genuinely had the interests of the British working class at heart, was John Smith.

Since then it's increasingly being run by, and on behalf of, the dwellers of the metropolitan London borough of ivory towers.

[AndrewJB]

I haven't said that either so I don't need to quote a source. Read what I posted. I was responding to AndrewJB's assertion that TM's record as Home Secretary and PM meant that she was likely to be setting up the gulags.
Still haven't got a response from AJB by the way.

I said "given her record..." (which is not limited to driving vans with big "Go Home!" signs on the back, and a creepy disdain for human rights) "...she is more likely..." (than Corbyn to set up a gulag). Given all the evidence I stand by that.

There is a train of thought on here that if Corbyn holds some leftwing beliefs such as looking after ordinary people, more state ownership, and less inequality - he therefore must have all the same traits as Stalin. In reality Theresa May's desire to scrap the Human Rights Act, and push for the extension of powers to snoop for our security forces is far more 'Stalinesque'

[Lancasterclaret]

People on here scream at you if you say their political opinions have been programmed into them, and then repeat ad nauseum the latest twist on Corbyn basing in the media.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

[AndrewJB]

The failure to grasp the simple fiscal concept that putting taxes up too far always leads to tax revenues falling is a common problem on the left.
The sad truth is that in the event of a left-wing administration the rich and affluent just carry on moving their money while the working class and impoverished always suffer more.

Not to say idealism (in the young) isn't a good thing, but you can't just tell people to pay more tax, you need to make it worth their while.

What you're saying in a nutshell is that paying tax is something the rich choose to do, whereas for everyone else there is no choice. Under the existing system I'd say you're right, but that doesn't mean to say the system can't be changed to make avoidance a great deal harder, and surely such a change would be morally the right thing to do. It doesn't take much of an imagination to think a key policy to emerge in a Corbyn government could be to shut down tax havens, and repatriate offshore money.

[dsr]

Theresa May just keeps them in camps for indefinite periods, leading to suicides instead.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featu ... 01287.html

The only suicide reported in that article is that of a Polush man. And as Poles can come and go freely, and as he was asking for bail, then presumably he was in detention because he was charged with a crime. Why doesn't the article give us details?

But anyway, Theresa May does keep people in prison for indefinite periods while awaiting trial. Would the Labour government put a stop to this?

[UpTheBeehole]

The only suicide reported in that article is that of a Polush man. And as Poles can come and go freely, and as he was asking for bail, then presumably he was in detention because he was charged with a crime. Why doesn't the article give us details?

But anyway, Theresa May does keep people in prison for indefinite periods while awaiting trial. Would the Labour government put a stop to this?

In 2015, the number of suicide attempts in UK detention centres averaged more than one every day, with 393 people trying to take their lives, a record high

[dsr]

[quote="UpTheBeehole"][/quote]
What are the actual suicide stats? Attempted suicide is a fuzzy sort of figure vulnerable to changes in counting methods; actual suicide is a much more concrete stat.

[quoonbeatz]

yeah, it doesn't count if they don't do it properly, we're only interested in the ones who managed to finish the job.

[UpTheBeehole]

What are the actual suicide stats? Attempted suicide is a fuzzy sort of figure vulnerable to changes in counting methods; actual suicide is a much more concrete stat.

You're inhuman.

"You live here two months and you get mental," says Hatem, another detainee at Colnbrook. He told Al Jazeera about an Algerian man who also attempted to take his own life recently, after receiving no response about his status from the authorities.

"He has been in here a long time, 18 months maybe. What he did was get a blade and cut through his face, his leg, everywhere. I've never seen so much blood. The guy was screaming ... 'I want answer. Why no one give me answer?'"

[Sidney1st]

http://www.irr.org.uk/news/deaths-in-im ... 1989-2017/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a rough number of deaths from as far back as 1989.
I didn't realise these places had been about so long.

Has anything been done by either party during their reigns to resolve the issues?

Before anyone starts whining at me for talking about the times before the Tories took over, it is a cross party issue, BUT it has become more common during the Tories current time in charge.

[dsr]

yeah, it doesn't count if they don't do it properly, we're only interested in the ones who managed to finish the job.

Of course it counts. But attempted suicides might include the person who insists he is trying to kill himself and does it twice a week. Actual suicides is a more robust statistic.

If it's true that there were 393 suicide attempts in 2015, but only 2 successful and the other 391 survived, isn't it possible that some of the 393 were not genuine suicide bids?

[UpTheBeehole]

http://www.irr.org.uk/news/deaths-in-im ... 1989-2017/

A real roll call of shame. I hope dsr views that link and sees how abhorrent his comments are.

[UpTheBeehole]

Disgusting dsr

[Sidney1st]

A real roll call of shame. I hope dsr views that link and sees how abhorrent his comments are.

A shame for both parties.

Some work needs to be done to stop this, but as with most government departments, they aren't really efficent regardless of who's in charge.

[Lancasterclaret]

Its where we are as a country in which people can argue that "attempted suicides" clearly are not proper attempts at suicide.

They should just be glad to be given a cell in a detention centre or something.

[dsr]

A real roll call of shame. I hope dsr views that link and sees how abhorrent his comments are.

You claim to work in statistics. Aren't you allowed to view them dispassionately - do you have to take every stat personally? If your boss asks you for the suicide stats and they don't suit your sense of compassion, are you allowed to substitute a stat you like better?

[UpTheBeehole]

I'm human, you're clearly not. You're sick.

[quoonbeatz]

Of course it counts. But attempted suicides might include the person who insists he is trying to kill himself and does it twice a week. Actual suicides is a more robust statistic.

If it's true that there were 393 suicide attempts in 2015, but only 2 successful and the other 391 survived, isn't it possible that some of the 393 were not genuine suicide bids?

its equally possible that those two didn't mean to kill themselves so, no, it isn't a more robust statistic.

either way, lets not try and belittle the point being made here that there are far too many people in these places who are in a dark enough place to wish to harm themselves enough that they might die.

i'd say i'm shocked at the latest depths plumbed on here but, sadly, i'm not.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not surprised

We've got the foriegn secretary on the radio comparing the Irish border to the one between London Boroughs.

We are so f**ked as a country its untrue.

[UpTheClaretsFCBK]

Those ‘stats’ are people.

Some of us seem to forget that.

[dsr]

its equally possible that those two didn't mean to kill themselves so, no, it isn't a more robust statistic.

either way, lets not try and belittle the point being made here that there are far too many people in these places who are in a dark enough place to wish to harm themselves enough that they might die.

i'd say i'm shocked at the latest depths plumbed on here but, sadly, i'm not.

If two institutions have 50 attempted suicides in a year, and one of them has 50 genuinely depressed people and the other has one troublemaker who pretends to try and commit suicide every week, then the attempted suicide rate would be identical. The actual suicide rate wouldn't.

It's no good people coming on here quoting statistics, and then flinging their hands up claiming others are inhuman for not weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth and accepting them without question. "Attempted suicides" as an event is terrible. As a statistic, it is open to interpretation. Actual statistics figures are much less open to interpretation - isn't that a good thing?

[UpTheBeehole]

dsr have you viewed the link detailing the 'successful' suicides, seeing as though that's all you're interested in; people successfully killing themselves.

[Damo]

The only answer to this obvious crisis is for Jeremy Corbyn to release all these people and open the borders.

[quoonbeatz]

If two institutions have 50 attempted suicides in a year, and one of them has 50 genuinely depressed people and the other has one troublemaker who pretends to try and commit suicide every week, then the attempted suicide rate would be identical. The actual suicide rate wouldn't.

if you've got the same person pretending to commit suicide every week, you wouldn't be recording it as attempted suicide.

anyway, pointless discussing this further. i think it just says a lot about someone when they're first thought about an attempted suicide statistic is 'there were probably a few pretending'.

[Guich]

What you're saying in a nutshell is that paying tax is something the rich choose to do, whereas for everyone else there is no choice. Under the existing system I'd say you're right, but that doesn't mean to say the system can't be changed to make avoidance a great deal harder, and surely such a change would be morally the right thing to do. It doesn't take much of an imagination to think a key policy to emerge in a Corbyn government could be to shut down tax havens, and repatriate offshore money.

I think you underestimate how nimble business people can be when it comes to moving money. There will always be tax havens. There will always be countries and economies ready to accept business and cash from elsewhere. Just look at the jockeying post EU Referendum.

The main reason Labour generally collects less tax is that if it's pitched too high businesses slow down their investment and Capex, which in turn can choke off the economy to an extent. It's a fine balance.

Don't think that all businesses and wealthy people don't want to pay tax - they do, but they want it to be spent well and they won't be screwed over if they think it isn't.

And I'd concentrate a lot more on Tax Evasion than Avoidance, if you do the latter then you could shut down half the accountancy profession and that would reduce revenues even more.

[dsr]

if you've got the same person pretending to commit suicide every week, you wouldn't be recording it as attempted suicide.

anyway, pointless discussing this further. i think it just says a lot about someone when they're first thought about an attempted suicide statistic is 'there were probably a few pretending'.

Who says it was my first thought? If my first thought was "oh no, Teresa May is evil because 393 people killed themselves in detention camps" and my second thought is "hang on, only two of them succeeded, perhaps they weren't all genuine attempts?

[quoonbeatz]

can't believe i used 'they're' instead of 'their' in my last post.

tbh dsr, its more that you're thinking it, not whether its your first thought. the fact that there were 393 people who thought harming themselves to the extent they might die, whether legitimate suicide attempt or not, is awful.

[UpTheBeehole]

Of course it counts. But attempted suicides might include the person who insists he is trying to kill himself and does it twice a week. Actual suicides is a more robust statistic.

If it's true that there were 393 suicide attempts in 2015, but only 2 successful and the other 391 survived, isn't it possible that some of the 393 were not genuine suicide bids?

You can't read can you?

The article says 393 PEOPLE, not 393 attempts.

[dsr]

Yes, I can read. This is what, if you follow the links, the statistics say (according to the no-deportation website quoted by the Guardian which is in turn quoted by the aljazeera link).

"There were 393 attempts by Immigration detainees across the detention estate, to self-harm throughout 2015, that is an average of more than one a day. Harmondsworth IRC had the highest number 105 and their were 64 attempts in Yarl’s Wood IRC, The Verne 52, Morton Hall IRC 51."

The no-deportation campaign group recorded it as attempts to self-harm, their headline writer upgraded this to suicide attempts, and the Guardian took the headline without troubling to read the rest of the data and assumed all 393 were suicide bids. Nowhere (except in the aljazeera article) does it say that all 393 were different people, and it seems they weren't even all suicide bids. If you hadn't been so squeamish about looking at the detail behind the statistics, you could have easily found that out for yourself.

http://www.no-deportations.org.uk/Media ... m2015.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[UpTheBeehole]

Nowhere (except in the aljazeera article) does it say that all 393 were different people,

So, somewhere then, not nowhere.

[UpTheBeehole]

IRCS ‘Self-Harm’ (Attempted Suicide) and those on ‘Self-Harm Watch’ (at risk of Suicide) 201

Suicide Attempts in IRCs Reach All time High

There were 393 attempts by Immigration detainees across the detention estate, to self-harm throughout 2015, that is an average of more than one a day. Harmondsworth IRC had the highest number 105 and their were 64 attempts in Yarl’s Wood IRC, The Verne 52, Morton Hall IRC 51.

YOUR VERY OWN LINK says they were suicide attempts