UK Car Industry Investment Plummets Due To Brexit

[RingoMcCartney]

I think it's looking increasingly clear after all the recent developments and announcements that we are now looking at either the "softest" of brexits, the longest of transistions, or no brexit
Let's see what Mrs May has to say tomorrow, and how JRM, IDS, Cash, Bone, Jenkin and Redwood respond. She may finally have to stand up to them.

You forgot to mention 17,400,000 British People who voted to Leave the EU, knew exactly what they were voting for, namely a clean brexit, and know that the terms "hard" or "soft" brexit were invented by the losing side.

It allows Remoaners to pretend they're fighting against a "hard brexit".

They're not. They're attempting to stop democracy and thwart the Will of the People.

Nice try though! God loves a trier!

[nil_desperandum]

"Deluded". Typical remainer comment, the usual doom and gloom. There's not going to be a second vote despite the continuous gloomy picture that you remainers are longing for.

Ok. It wasn't my post, but I'll bite.
Go on then: if you're so positive, how would you resolve the issue of both leaving the Customs Union and keeping the Irish border open?
And how will you protect jobs in our motor industry if we don't have alignment with the EU thus ensuring continued production by Toyota etc?
(I'm out for the evening now, but will be interested to read your response. If you have the answers then send them to David Davis and T. May, since to be honest, you probably have more idea than they do.)

[nil_desperandum]

You forgot to mention 17,400,000 British People who voted to Leave the EU, knew exactly what they were voting for, namely a clean brexit, and know that the terms "hard" or "soft" brexit were invented by the losing side.
)

Maybe those terms were only invented post-referendum, but that doesn't mean that these issues didn't exit before the referendum.
There were plenty of leave campaigners who were arguing for what is now known as a "soft brexit" leading up to the vote.
Farage, Hannan and Owen Paterson all said that staying in the Customs Union and Single Market was an option, so how do you know how many of your 17 million were "hard" and how many were "soft".

[Lancasterclaret]

There isn't a solution for the GFA and the customs union.

Absolute guarantee that it won't be mentioned in specifics in tomorrows speech.

[Lancasterclaret]

See Ian Duncan Smith spent the day touring every radio and TV show in the land, before someone actually cottoned on to that he hadn't actually heard John Majors speech and pulled him up on it.

Imagine living in a country where that isn't reported as important?

Don't you ever stop and wonder why these rich plutocrats are so keen for you not to think about the implications of Brexit?

[UpTheClaretsFCBK]

Can anyone here really say they knew what the true ramifications of Brexit were going to be before the referendum?

We still don’t really know, even now.

Quite frankly I’m sick of hearing about it all.

[BennyD]

See Ian Duncan Smith spent the day touring every radio and TV show in the land, before someone actually cottoned on to that he hadn't actually heard John Majors speech and pulled him up on it.

Imagine living in a country where that isn't reported as important?

Imagine a (Western) country where the opposition leader has been revealed as a soviet informer and sympathiser and the National broadcaster doesn’t regard reporting it as being important. What’s your point?

[Lancasterclaret]

You don't think its a bit weird that a brexiteer can't even be bothered to check the speech he's criticising?

He knows he won't get questioned on it, and if anyone does, its "Corbyn is a communist spy"

Never any attempt to debate the multitude of "look how **** Brexit is going to be", just ignore that and blame communists and immigrants.

it what they do in banana republics, not in the worlds most foremost democracy.

[Dejavu]

Imagine a (Western) country where the opposition leader has been revealed as a soviet informer and sympathiser and the National broadcaster doesn’t regard reporting it as being important. What’s your point?

I think you'll find it's been falsely trotted out ad nauseum and found to be a pile of poo...

[dsr]

I think its very risky indeed to play poker when all you've got is a pair of fives.

Regarding the no deal scenario, its fairly obvious now that Conservative MPs (particularly in seats in London and around it) are thinking slightly more long term than Brexit.

Mays speech tomorrow has to be a humdinger to pull this back now. If she just blames the EU for everything they will (quite correctly) point out that the UK Govt agreed to all this less than three months ago to make sure the negotiations moved on to trade.

The EU#s current position is that the UK should be de facto dissolved, with Northern Ireland remaining in the EU. Mrs. May didn't agree to that. That position makes it easy for May to say "end of talks unless you want to be sensible".

You've made it quite clear that you believe the EU to be an utterly ruthless organisation that will happily drive the UK into penury, even at the expense of making their own people poorer, just so they can maintain their political power base. I believe that too. What I don't see is why you are so desperate to jump into bed with them.

[BennyD]

I think you'll find it's been falsely trotted out ad nauseum and found to be a pile of poo...

Who by? The Labour Party and the BBC?

[Lancasterclaret]

The EU#s current position is that the UK should be de facto dissolved, with Northern Ireland remaining in the EU. Mrs. May didn't agree to that.

But they did, if they couldn't find another way of doing it.

Its going to be some speech tomorrow. It has to be.

You've made it quite clear that you believe the EU to be an utterly ruthless organisation that will happily drive the UK into penury, even at the expense of making their own people poorer, just so they can maintain their political power base.

I think thats the problem. You don't see anything you don't want to see. The EU has rules, including article 50, SM, CU etc etc etc All democratically agreed, all perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of people in the EU. You don't see 40 years of growth, you don't see 40 years of security, you don't see a Europe at peace for the longest time in its history. You don't see every nation a hell of lot closer together and therefore less likely to start destructive trade wars or worse.

You see something to do with sovereignty. You know the UK will never be part of a federal europe. I know it. But you are prepared for whatever reason to accept the collapse of the Good Friday agreement, the possible break up of the United Kingdom ffs and all for what?

So a bunch of opportunistic politicians can take into a unicorn based utopia in which there is precious little evidence to suggest we will have. And I get that the poorer regions of the country will believe what they are told that unicorn utopia is just around the corner, but all we've got to do is to leave the EU. Its that simple. Except it isn't, and it never was, and it never will be.

What is holding us back is our inability to shake off the past, not some blokes in Brussels that its easy to blame for everything.

[Dejavu]

Who by? The Labour Party and the BBC?

By every single respected news outlet in the country.

[dsr]

The EU has rules, including article 50, SM, CU etc etc etc All democratically agreed, all perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of people in the EU. You don't see 40 years of growth, you don't see 40 years of security, you don't see a Europe at peace for the longest time in its history. You don't see every nation a hell of lot closer together and therefore less likely to start destructive trade wars or worse.

How on earth do you know that? Are you quoting referenda from all the other EU countries that gave that ringing endorsement? What about Macron who recently claimed that France would vote to leave the EU if they were asked? Was he lying, or does he just have information that you don't?

I do see 40 years of peace in Europe. I see the period from 1945 to 1957 when there were no wars in Europe in spite of the absence of the EEC, I see the period from 1957 to 1973 when there were no wars in Europe in spite of the UK's absence from the EEC, I see no wars in Europe from 1973 to 1992 before the EU was founded, I see no wars in Europe from 1992 to date. (Except for Yugoslavia of course, and that was a situation where a number of different races and nations were shoehorned into a single country against their wishes and couldn't possibly have any resemblance to the EU.) I also see there were no wars in Europe from 1945 to date when NATO was in existence. Does NATO deserve any acknowledgement in the preservation of peace? Maybe just a tiny footnote in history?

As for the presence of the EU meaning there is much less chance of anyone starting a trade war - huh? What do you think they are talking about in the Brexit talks? The UK wants free trade, the EU categorically does not and is threatening an all-out trade war unless they get their way, and their way extends as far as taking de facto control over a part of the United Kingdom. If the presence of the EU means less chance of destructive trade wars, then why are you worried about leaving it?

[Damo]

The more all this nonsense goes on. The more I cannot wait for the UK to be out of the cartel that is the EU. Its a horrible, corrupt, mafiosa like organisation. Its absolutely unnacountable to anyone.
Thank God we took our one chance to be rid of it for good

[Damo]

Lancaster. Please can you explain what frightens you so much about sovereignty?
You talk of nothing other than that when it comes to reasons for voting for Brexit.
How many levels of authority do you actually need in your life. Would you prefer a world order for example?

[Lancasterclaret]

We are the only country to leave.

After we left, you told us that France, Germany, Austria, Hungary and the Netherlands would all vote in parties that would want to leave.

They haven't and they won't. I knew this, you probably did as well but you won't accept it because it does't fit in with your view of the EU and Europe.

Except for Yugoslavia of course, and that was a situation where a number of different races and nations were shoehorned into a single country against their wishes and couldn't possibly have any resemblance to the EU.

Communist country, which is similar to the EU in no way what so ever. You know this, because you are not thick. Again, you see what you want to see, your desire for brexit turns you (and Rowls, and BennyD and all the others) into people who people like me look at and go "but he's not thick, he's articulate, he's knows stuff, what the hell is he talking about with this rubbish?.

You ignore the fact that 3 months ago the UK government agreed to the very thing they are blaming the EU for now. its called reality and everytime you break faith with your friends, those friends are less inclined to help you. We probably had a bit of credit in the bank after article 50 was triggered with the EU, but we haven't now because its really clear that May has no power over her own party, and precious little in the country. And we treat every meeting, every minor agreement as something that we can easily break with no backlash whatsoever. That is not true, and its becoming clearer with every passing week.

[Lancasterclaret]

The more I cannot wait for the UK to be out of the cartel that is the EU. Its a horrible, corrupt, mafiosa like organisation. Its absolutely unnacountable to anyone.

Not true, but hell, you don't care. You want to believe it, so hey presto!, you believe it.

[Lancasterclaret]

Thank God we took our one chance to be rid of it for good

If you don't get a Brexit right that satisfies more than just your point of view, it will be the shortest exit in poltical history.

Its up to you lot to come up with something that people like me can get behind. By lying all the time you have not even come remotely close yet.

[Lancasterclaret]

Lancaster. Please can you explain what frightens you so much about sovereignty?
You talk of nothing other than that when it comes to reasons for voting for Brexit.
How many levels of authority do you actually need in your life. Would you prefer a world order for example?

Nothing whatsoever. We've always had it, we'll always have it. Its people like you that have an issue with it. I've never ever felt sovereignty affected me in anything. Why would it?

[Damo]

I find remainers really odd because 90% of the world's population want to be free from governance.
But remainers want the opposite.
I don't understand how they feel so insecure about direct democracy that they want to be told what to do by a small group of people who do not understand, or care what their issues are.
It's almost like Stockholm syndrome.
People who do not feel capable of deciding what they want to do and require some far flung beurocrats to decide it for them

[Lancasterclaret]

Anyway, I'm off to bed after last nights excitement with the LCC website.

Enjoy the speech tomorrow, all the hints suggest that its going to be yet another exercise in saying absolutely bugger all when it really needs some real solutions to this.

[Lancasterclaret]

But that because you see what you want to see.

You clearly know your stuff, so why sound off like a Daily mail editorial? It makes no sense.

[dsr]

We are the only country to leave.

After we left, you told us that France, Germany, Austria, Hungary and the Netherlands would all vote in parties that would want to leave.

They haven't and they won't. I knew this, you probably did as well but you won't accept it because it does't fit in with your view of the EU and Europe.

Link please. I know for sure that I never told you that, because I don't know enough about the political system of any of those countries apart from France; and I know the French system would never result in the National Front being elected (the only significant party that wants to leave). So you may have seen it from someone else on this board, but either way, I'd be interested to see who.

Communist country, which is similar to the EU in no way what so ever. You know this, because you are not thick. Again, you see what you want to see, your desire for brexit turns you (and Rowls, and BennyD and all the others) into people who people like me look at and go "but he's not thick, he's articulate, he's knows stuff, what the hell is he talking about with this rubbish?.

Of course there are similarities between a group of countries with separate languages and history being melded into a larger entity and another group of countries with separate languages and history being melded into a larger entity. There may be enough differences that you don't think the similarities are relevant, but to say there are no similarities is just silly. (As was your assertion that there had been no wars in Europe for donkey's years, incidentally.)

You ignore the fact that 3 months ago the UK government agreed to the very thing they are blaming the EU for now. its called reality and everytime you break faith with your friends, those friends are less inclined to help you. We probably had a bit of credit in the bank after article 50 was triggered with the EU, but we haven't now because its really clear that May has no power over her own party, and precious little in the country.

Link? I'm especially interested in confirmation of the DUP's agreement.

I never did understand the EU's insistence on getting a definitive signed agreement on how the border will work with the new trade rules, and only then going on to decide what the new trade rules are going to be.

[dsr]

You don't think its a bit weird that a brexiteer can't even be bothered to check the speech he's criticising?

Not weird at all. It happens in all walks of life - on this very board earlier today, a poster used a story about a teacher firing a gun as a criticism of the proposal to put guns in the hands of American teachers - and he hadn't read the story. It happens all the time.

[Walton]

Funny that DSR is wanting links and proof when 99% of what he writes is incorrect, based on zero evidence and blinkered towards what he wants to see.

[dsr]

Funny that DSR is wanting links and proof when 99% of what he writes is incorrect, based on zero evidence and blinkered towards what he wants to see.

If you have nothing to say, then say it.

Can't you see anything even remotely ironic about that sentence?

[Damo]

I'm guessing Walton only read half of one comment on this thread. That's giving him the benefit of doubt of course

[RingoMcCartney]

Maybe those terms were only invented post-referendum, but that doesn't mean that these issues didn't exit before the referendum.
There were plenty of leave campaigners who were arguing for what is now known as a "soft brexit" leading up to the vote.
Farage, Hannan and Owen Paterson all said that staying in the Customs Union and Single Market was an option, so how do you know how many of your 17 million were "hard" and how many were "soft".

The ballot paper said Leave or Remain.

Remoaners are like the bloke at work, half way thru the week, still whining on about a nailed on penalty the previous Saturday that would've had changed the result.

You're side lost. Accept it.

[Dejavu]

The ballot paper said Leave or Remain.

Remoaners are like the bloke at work, half way thru the week, still whining on about a nailed on penalty the previous Saturday that would've had changed the result.

You're side lost. Accept it.

I specifically remember on the night of the referendum, Farage calling for a 2nd referendum, when he thought the result hadn't gone his way. The early issues of most of the Brexit papers were doing the same.

The Brexiteers clearly weren't ready to accept a remain vote, so why should Remainers accept a Brexit vote?

[JohnMcGreal]

I find remainers really odd because 90% of the world's population want to be free from governance.

Have you got any evidence to support that nonsense you just posted?

[RingoMcCartney]

I specifically remember on the night of the referendum, Farage calling for a 2nd referendum, when he thought the result hadn't gone his way. The early issues of most of the Brexit papers were doing the same.

The Brexiteers clearly weren't ready to accept a remain vote, so why should Remainers accept a Brexit vote?

If we'd actually left the EU and Remoaners were campaigning to rejoin. Fair enough. But the ceaseless, grind fest you constantly indulge before we've even left. Proves you simply don't accept democracy.

Paddy Ashdown BEFORE he realised his side lost the referendum.

https://youtu.be/-Bv_1z2lFlw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I will forgive no one who does not respect the sovereign voice of the British people once it has spoken whether it is a majority of one per cent or 20 per cent.

When the British people have spoken you do what they command. Either you believe in democracy or you don’t."

Couldn't have put it better myself, Paddy.

[Dejavu]

If we'd actually left the EU and Remoaners were campaigning to rejoin. Fair enough. But the ceaseless, grind fest you constantly indulge before we've even left. Proves you simply don't accept democracy.

Paddy Ashdown BEFORE he realised his side lost the referendum.

https://youtu.be/-Bv_1z2lFlw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I will forgive no one who does not respect the sovereign voice of the British people once it has spoken whether it is a majority of one per cent or 20 per cent.

When the British people have spoken you do what they command. Either you believe in democracy or you don’t."

Couldn't have put it better myself, Paddy.

Bloody Ashdown completely undermining my point.

[Lancasterclaret]

"The commission – fully supported, it should be stressed, by the entire EU27 – is only forcing London to confront the contradictions of its OWN position & its failure to level with its OWN people. "

The EU are much better at this sort of thing than we are.
.

[nil_desperandum]

The ballot paper said Leave or Remain.

Remoaners are like the bloke at work, half way thru the week, still whining on about a nailed on penalty the previous Saturday that would've had changed the result.

You're side lost. Accept it.

You've gone off the specific point that I made.
The overwhelming majority of those on "the losing side" have accepted the result - including myself, Lancaster and - I think - most others on this board.
But you argued that all the 17,400,000 who voted leave voted for a "clean brexit" not a "hard" or "soft" brexit.
I asked you how you could possibly know what percentage of the 17,400,000 voted anticipating what is now termed a "hard" brexit.
Nobody knows, because - as you correctly point out - the question wasn't on the ballot paper.
However, a lot of prominent leave campaigners were arguing strongly for what is now referred to as the "soft" option, so it's pretty reasonable to assume that a significant percentage of that 17,400,000 voted in anticipation of remaining in some form of Customs Union / Single Market.
When you add those voters to the vast majority of "remain" voters, who accept the result but believe we should remain in the Customs Union, then you have the consensus that is the only way forward for this country.
Virtually all the arguments in favour of Brexit nowadays are based on "it's the will of the people". That's a fair enough argument to make, but the problem for hardline brexiteers is that there isn't a majority in the country for what is now referred to as the "hard" option".

[Sidney1st]

We could always find a middle option.

Amuses me when it's apparently hard or soft, no one seems to mention somewhere in the middle.

Both sets of politicians are spending far to much time giving out media soundbites.

[nil_desperandum]

We could always find a middle option.

Amuses me when it's apparently hard or soft, no one seems to mention somewhere in the middle.

Both sets of politicians are spending far to much time giving out media soundbites.

The "so-called "soft" option is the middle way isn't it?
We leave the EU but can exchange goods and services tariff free with the EU.
Just exactly how this can be achieved is the problem that this government should be addressing, especially as virtually no-one sees merits in the Norwegian model, and we want a lot more than the Canada model, .. oh, and we don't want free-movement and we don't want to pay anything.
Other than that it's dead easy!

[Sidney1st]

I assumed soft meant the above plus having to abide by their rules on certain thing?

So much ranting goes on in this place it's hard to tell what either side are dribbling on about sometimes.

[nil_desperandum]

I assumed soft meant the above plus having to abide by their rules on certain thing?
.

Well presumably yes, but if we revert to WTO then we will be totally bound by their rules - like for example having "hard" borders, (inc. NI).
Being "in effect" an associate member of any club means that you have to adhere to certain rules. It's impossible to trade with anyone without agreeing to a set of rules.
The only way to be in total control of our rules is to pull up the drawbridge completely and live in "splendid isolation".

[Sidney1st]

Ah yes WTO rules.

Some people appear to be convinced that's how it's going to end up
Possibly eager so they've got something else to complain about.

[nil_desperandum]

Ah yes WTO rules.

Some people appear to be convinced that's how it's going to end up
Possibly eager so they've got something else to complain about.

I don't really get your argument there. WTO rules are what some people want, but I don't believe they are the majority.
It would appear that there are only really 3 options
Some kind of customs union deal with the EU, which means we have to negotiate the terms and rules in the next couple of years, (which by the way is what I support)
or Reverting to WTO and accepting all their rules
or Not trading with the outside world
FWIW I'm now fairly convinced that the government supports the first option - despite some recent statements that contradict this. (This is in part due to the fact that they can't think of any other solution to the Irish border question - other than Johnson's bizarre comparison to London boroughs and the congestion charge)
Let's see what our great leader says later today.

[RingoMcCartney]

You've gone off the specific point that I made.
The overwhelming majority of those on "the losing side" have accepted the result - including myself, Lancaster and - I think - most others on this board.
But you argued that all the 17,400,000 who voted leave voted for a "clean brexit" not a "hard" or "soft" brexit.
I asked you how you could possibly know what percentage of the 17,400,000 voted anticipating what is now termed a "hard"
Virtually all the arguments in favour of Brexit nowadays are based on "it's the will of the people". .

A "soft" brexit is not a true Leave. It's invented by Remoaners to pretend it is. It's not.

And the Will of the People is vital if democracy is to be upheld, protected and respected.

But what Cameron, the prime minister before he scarpered off, said. And the 9 million pound official government booklet that went to every single household in the land, stated, "It's your decision"

So the Brexiteer argument is this. We've decided.

We're out of the EU, and out of the associated bodies outlined in the official governmemr booklet, and discussed on every tv, radio debate, discussion and newspaper for 18 months prior to the vote.

Stop pretending we weren't informed. We were. We voted Leave and we won.

There's a whole world out there to join and prosper with. Stop being a whining myopic Little Europeaner

[nil_desperandum]

A "soft" brexit is not a true Leave. It's invented by Remoaners to pretend it is. It's not.

Stop pretending we weren't informed. We were. We voted Leave and we won.

There's a whole world out there to join and prosper with. Stop being a whining myopic Little Europeaner

That's fine if its your considered position, and you might be right. It's just that a lot of people - almost certainly a majority - think that reverting to WTO rules and having a hard border in Ireland is a terrible idea, and all the sounds coming from the government, industry and business recently seem to point to to us having some form of Customs Union.

[Lancasterclaret]

Stop pretending we weren't informed. We were. We voted Leave and we won

So informed you all still regularly peddle lies about the EU on here?

That isn't informed Ringo, its repeating propaganda.

There is a massive difference, and one of the greatest problems we have at the moment is that people no longer are bothered by it if it backs what they want to believe.

[RingoMcCartney]

pull up the drawbridge completely and live in "splendid isolation".

Wanting to regain our national sovereignty and strike out with the 85% of the world GDP (that isnt the EU) and make mutually beneficial relationships and trade deals with them is "splendid isolation"!!!

Remoaners- still clinging on to the failing, shrinking in GDP, protectionist and trully isolationist EU!

In 1980 the EUs share of global GDP was around 31%

It's now less than 15% or so!!!!!!!

The EU is a dinosaur, the world has moved on since its creators thought it'd be a good idea to create Super state.

But pretended it was just a single area for buying and selling goods between countries on a borderless basis with a common currency.

We've got that without billions of pounds worth paying for the lavish lifestyles of legions of faceless unelected eurocrats.

IT'S CALLED THE INTERNET AND PAY PAL!!!!!!!

[RingoMcCartney]

So informed you all still regularly peddle lies about the EU on here?

That isn't informed Ringo, its repeating propaganda.

There is a massive difference, and one of the greatest problems we have at the moment is that people no longer are bothered by it if it backs what they want to believe.

Lies? Examples please.

The biggest lie ever told to the British People was the common market was a body that we'd join that was to enable trade.

Since then it's got it's own currency, flag, national anthem and the nucleus of an army.

Your side told the biggest lie ever. The British People saw deceit for what it was. Your side told it and got punished for it.

You lost.

[nil_desperandum]

Wanting to regain our national sovereignty and strike out with the 85% of the world GDP (that isnt the EU) and make mutually beneficial relationships and trade deals with them is "splendid isolation"!!!

You clearly make no attempt to understand this so I'm out.
I said that pulling up the drawbridge and existing in "splendid isolation" was only the alternative to doing deals.
Any deals that we do with any organisation, (including and especially the WTO), means that we have to abide by their rules.
Which bit of that is hard to understand?

[Lancasterclaret]

19 months of people thinking its a football match.

And that person claims to understand the argument?

Yeah, right

[aggi]

Link? I'm especially interested in confirmation of the DUP's agreement.

Paragraph 49 is probably what you want https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

Lies? Examples please.

Off the top of my head I'll go with the EU army you kept making up stories about.