Former Russian Spy attacked in the UK

[Lancasterclaret]

You even used the word "International Jewry"

Please tell me that pic is a list of people that are Jews!

[UpTheBeehole]

UTC continues to platform anti-semitism as well as islamophobia.

[IanMcL]

"Funny how Porton Down is just up the road!"

Surely the location is because that's where the swapped former Russian Spy lived. If he'd lived in Halifax then the attack would've been in Halifax.

But they chose a former Russian spy who lived in Salisbury. Why choose one in Halifax when Porton Down is near Salisbury?

You have to think like them!

[IanMcL]

If we were an emerging nation or a third world country the 'west' would be demanding to inspect this 'chemical weapons factory' or are we exempt because we ARE the west? What makes us 'better' than other nations or is it because we are the good old Brits.
Political hypocrisy is alive and well and living in Britain.

It is not for weapons....It is a Chemical Defence Establishment!

See the difference? Ha!

[HatfieldClaret]

But they chose a former Russian spy who lived in Salisbury. Why choose one in Halifax when Porton Down is near Salisbury?

You have to think like them!

Yeah, like Halifax is known for the place of choice for ex spies to settle down quietly.....

[Lancasterclaret]

Its a paradise compared to somewhere like Vorkuta or Magadan

[IanMcL]

Yeah, like Halifax is known for the place of choice for ex spies to settle down quietly.....

I think you get the drift Hatfield!

[HatfieldClaret]

Nah, much prefer Magadan myself. They do a good cabbage soup there.

[houseboy]

It is not for weapons....It is a Chemical Defence Establishment!

See the difference? Ha!

Oh, it's for DEFENCE. That's okay then eh?

[Lancasterclaret]

This is very good.

Well, not if you are a conspiracy theorist who knows nothing about chemistry.

https://twitter.com/corbyn50plus/status ... 0254538754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[NottsClaret]

This is very good.

Well, not if you are a conspiracy theorist who knows nothing about chemistry.

https://twitter.com/corbyn50plus/status ... 0254538754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ha.. interesting read that Lancaster.

The only thing to do when faced with knowledge, reason and facts is to quickly block them and get back on YouTube for your opinions.

[Lord Rothbury]

Oh, it's for DEFENCE. That's okay then eh?

[Rick_Muller]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/sali ... ed-kingdom

Sorry to break real news to you bunch of utter nutters.........

Whats your point?

Mine is that we've been lied to before...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi ... ossier.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

Erm, you might be well advised to read post #60

Conspiracy theories are ace, until they come up against cold, hard facts.

And regarding that we've been lied to before, we get lied to by our politicians all the time. Its up to you to read more about what they say so you have a better idea about what they are lying about.

[Rick_Muller]

Erm, you might be well advised to read post #60

Conspiracy theories are ace, until they come up against cold, hard facts.

And regarding that we've been lied to before, we get lied to by our politicians all the time. Its up to you to read more about what they say so you have a better idea about what they are lying about.

I’ve read the tweet link, what’s you’re point? What is your position? What do you think?

I’m making an effort to see the wood from the trees, to find some truth in all that is published. I can say that we’ve been lied to before, and I know politicians lie all the time to suit their agenda. In regards to the attack in Salisbury - it may well be another WMD scandal, and I don’t think enough people in power are asking the right questions or concluding with enough certainty that Putin and Russia are responsible and using facts not assumptions to make their conclusions. Does that make me a conspiracy theorist? If so, so what? I like to ask questions to find truth not opinion.

[UpTheBeehole]

There can be no one in Britain who is not outraged by the appalling attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury last week. The use of military nerve agents on the streets of Britain is barbaric and beyond reckless. This horrific event demands first of all the most thorough and painstaking criminal investigation, conducted by our police and security services. They have a right to expect full support in their work, just as the public should also be able to expect calm heads and a measured response from their political leaders. To rush way ahead of the evidence being gathered by the police, in a fevered parliamentary atmosphere, serves neither justice nor our national security.

Theresa May was right on Monday to identify two possibilities for the source of the attack in Salisbury, given that the nerve agent used has been identified as of original Russian manufacture. Either this was a crime authored by the Russian state; or that state has allowed these deadly toxins to slip out of the control it has an obligation to exercise. If the latter, a connection to Russian mafia-like groups that have been allowed to gain a toehold in Britain cannot be excluded.

On Wednesday the prime minister ruled out neither option. Which of these ultimately prove to be the case is a matter for police and security professionals to determine. Hopefully the next step will be the arrest of those responsible.

As I said in parliament, the Russian authorities must be held to account on the basis of the evidence, and our response must be both decisive and proportionate. But let us not manufacture a division over Russia where none exists. Labour is of course no supporter of the Putin regime, its conservative authoritarianism, abuse of human rights or political and economic corruption. And we pay tribute to Russia’s many campaigners for social justice and human rights, including for LGBT rights.

However, that does not mean we should resign ourselves to a “new cold war” of escalating arms spending, proxy conflicts across the globe and a McCarthyite intolerance of dissent. Instead, Britain needs to uphold its laws and its values without reservation. And those should be allied to a foreign policy that uses every opportunity to reduce tensions and conflict wherever possible.

This government’s diplomacy is failing the country. Unqualified support for Donald Trump and rolling out the red carpet for a Saudi despot not only betrays our values, it makes us less safe.

And our capacity to deal with outrages from Russia is compromised by the tidal wave of ill-gotten cash that Russian oligarchs – both allied with and opposed to the Russian government – have laundered through London over the past two decades. We must stop servicing Russian crony capitalism in Britain, and the corrupt billionaires who use London to protect their wealth.

So I will not step back from demanding that Russian money be excluded from our political system. We will be holding the government’s feet to the fire to fully back Labour’s proposed Magnitsky-style sanctions against human rights abusers, along with a wider crackdown on money laundering and tax avoidance.

We agree with the government’s action in relation to Russian diplomats, but measures to tackle the oligarchs and their loot would have a far greater impact on Russia’s elite than limited tit-for-tat expulsions. We are willing to back further sanctions as and when the investigation into the Salisbury attack produces results.

But if we are to unite our allies behind action that needs taking, we must make full use of existing international treaties and procedures for dealing with chemical weapons. That means working through the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to reduce the threat from these horrific weapons, including if necessary an investigation by chemical weapons inspectors into the distribution of Soviet-era weapons.

There can and should be the basis for a common political response to this crime. But in my years in parliament I have seen clear thinking in an international crisis overwhelmed by emotion and hasty judgments too many times. Flawed intelligence and dodgy dossiers led to the calamity of the Iraq invasion. There was overwhelming bipartisan support for attacking Libya, but it proved to be wrong. A universal repugnance at the 9/11 attacks led to a war on Afghanistan that continues to this day, while terrorism has spread across the globe.

The continuing fallout from the collapse of the Soviet Union and the virtual collapse of the Russian state in the 1990s must be addressed through international law and diplomacy if we are to reverse the drift to conflict.

Right now, the perpetrators of the Salisbury attack must be identified and held to account. Only through firm multilateral action can we ensure such a shocking crime never happens again.

Brilliant from Corbyn

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-cold-war

[Sidney1st]

Good speech from Corbyn.

[Lancasterclaret]

If only he'd said that in the commons though? But he's at least clarified his position which is something we can all agree on is an excellent one.

Rick, you are arguing against chemistry with this one.

Iraq didn't have any WMDs

In this one, you've got the WMDs, they have been used and they have been used in the UK, against UK citizens, and it can only have come from one place. Though I hope like **** that it doesn't come to it, but that is what is known as "an act of war" and under article five of the NATO treaty Britain can call it as such.

QUICK EDIT - and the only way to hit Russia where it hurts is exactly what Corbyn wants to do which is to hit the Oligarchs. The "Majinsky" act is designed to do exactly that and I wouldn't be surprised if it was enacted some time next week.

[Rick_Muller]

...

Rick, you are arguing against chemistry with this one.

Can you explain what you mean? I am not trying to be facetious, I genuinely don't understand your position. Are you saying that the chemistry described in that twitter link means that the chemicals used are irrefutably from Russia, or not? I understood the article linked in the tweet to mean that anyone could make the binary "weapon" used but as there were no mass spectography markers to identify the original source of the chemicals it couldn't be certain of the source.

...

In this one, you've got the WMDs, they have been used and they have been used in the UK, against UK citizens, and it can only have come from one place. Though I hope like **** that it doesn't come to it, but that is what is known as "an act of war" and under article five of the NATO treaty Britain can call it as such.

are you certain that it can only come from one place? I'm not.

[bluelabrador16]

Worth a read:

Of A Type Developed By Liars ......,,.. Craig Murray

"I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days. The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday:...."

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And...

Blaming Russia for Skripal attack is similar to ‘Jews poisoning our wells’ in Middle Ages

"There is no proof of Russia’s guilt in the Skripal poisoning. The case recalls previous allegations of poisoning which turned out to be either unproven or false, writes John Laughland.

Congratulations to Craig Murray for getting there first. The colorful former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, turned anti-establishment dissident after he was sacked from the Foreign Office in 2004, has published on his blog some key texts by authoritative scientists which cast serious doubt on the British government's claims about what happened to the former double agent, Sergei Skripal, and why....."

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/421434-skripal ... russia-uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Novichok Story Is Indeed Another Iraqi WMD Scam.....Craig Murray

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... -wmd-scam/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

Yes. The trace elements can be tracked to their point of origin. That alone suggests two things

- The UK are on firm ground in believing that Russia was behind the attack
- Russia knew the UK would know it was them and is effectively saying "what are you going to do about it"

I understood the article linked in the tweet to mean that anyone could make the binary "weapon" used but as there were no mass spectography markers to identify the original source of the chemicals it couldn't be certain of the source.

The second reply down is from a chemist who blows that out of the water in a series of tweets Rick

[Lancasterclaret]

Yeah, someone just posted that to me on twitter blue.

From exactly the same source that got completely owned by the chemists in the post above.

God, you conspiracy theorists are as thick as mince sometimes!

EDIT - that is to bluelab, not you Rick!

[Rick_Muller]

Yes. The trace elements can be tracked to their point of origin. That alone suggests two things

- The UK are on firm ground in believing that Russia was behind the attack
- Russia knew the UK would know it was them and is effectively saying "what are you going to do about it"

OK

The second reply down is from a chemist who blows that out of the water in a series of tweets Rick

Yeah, I read the series of tweets - he was pretty scathing in his attack on the original article and how he was much more knowledgeable than the person who tweeted the article. I think thats where my misunderstanding of your viewpoint came from, I wasn't sure from your posts what you actually thought.

I acknowledge that I am no expert, but I do have an inquisitive mind and nature, and I dont even take an experts opinion on anything as read, because I have experienced many times in my lifetime where experts have been massively wrong (I am not saying this chap is, just that others have been) so I try to use my limited knowledge and understanding to use logic and thought to acquire my own conclusions, that's all. If that makes me a conspiracy theorist, then so be it - I'd rather know the truth than believe a told lie.

EDIT - that is to bluelab, not you Rick!

glad you clarified that

[AndrewJB]

Corbyn's speech looks very different to that of our defence minister; "Russia should go away and shut up" Apparently Williamson (the defence min.) sold access to himself to the wife of one of Putin's ex government ministers for £30K (to the Tory Party). Access to May was sold off for more of course. I don't understand how this is legal.

[Lancasterclaret]

Thing is Rick, in chemistry, you are either right or you are wrong!

The only chance (and its so small that it's not worth considering) is that Russia "lost" this stuff, it somehow ended up in the hands of someone who knew how dangerous it was, how to store it safely and then used it to settle an unspecified account with the bloke, despite knowing full well (because he knew what it was) that it would be traced back to Russia. And if that was the case, then Russia would eliminate him anyway as a traitor as he has stolen chemical weapons from a military facility.

Can you see why it can only be Russia behind it?

[Rick_Muller]

Thing is Rick, in chemistry, you are either right or you are wrong!

The only chance (and its so small that it's not worth considering) is that Russia "lost" this stuff, it somehow ended up in the hands of someone who knew how dangerous it was, how to store it safely and then used it to settle an unspecified account with the bloke, despite knowing full well (because he knew what it was) that it would be traced back to Russia. And if that was the case, then Russia would eliminate him anyway as a traitor as he has stolen chemical weapons from a military facility.

Can you see why it can only be Russia behind it?

OK, let me ask you some questions:

Are you saying that the evidence is that irrefutable that it has to have come from Russia? If so, what is the Chemistry that supports this view? Are you saying that there must have been chemical markers to identify Russia as the source? If that is the case, then why is the statement from the PM using terms such as "highly likely" and not "we are certain" - either the source is Russia, or it is not - you are stating that your view is that it is Russia, I am merely being pragmatic and reserving judgement until we know the truth (if we ever get to find that out!). In all likelihood it is Putin and Russia, but I am not willing to go to war on the back of an opinion and rhetoric. If it is a certainty, it needs to be stated as such, and not use language that invites questioning and ambiguity that is all I am saying. Here is the actual quote from the gov.uk press release

The United Kingdom briefed thoroughly its allies that it was highly likely that Russia was responsible for the attack.

My understanding of the Chemistry is that when you manufacture something you will have forensic markers from impurities that can indicate what the source materials are and as such identify to a degree of certainty in some cases as to the origin from anywhere on the planet, but not 100% certainty as that is not entirely possible.

Can you see why I question the rhetoric?

[BarstewardsEnquiry]

From what I read the other day, novichok was manufactured and stored in Uzbekistan in the late 80s which of course was part of the old Soviet Union, so technically speaking not Russia. It is thought that quantities of the agent were misplaced/stolen during the break up of the Soviet Union like millions of other pieces of military hardware. I doubt the real truth will ever be known, personally.

[Lancasterclaret]

Rick, the thread above by an actual chemist tells me enough

And I think I answered the question on who else it could be

Barsteward - it wouldn't be useable now I think (but I'm not clear on that)

[Bacchus]

Everything that is in the public domain suggests Russia is to blame. Russian nerve agent, Russian spies targeted, etc. The number of suspicious deaths in the UK of Russians that fell out with Putin suggests that Russia is to blame. Russia's recent aggressive conduct and apparent desperation to drag us all back to the cold war era suggests that Russia is to blame. Russia's fairly standard faux outrage, "prove it, then" response suggests that Russia is to blame.

I understand and do have some sympathy with the Corbyn view that we should be adopting a belt and braces approach here rather than hurrying to escalate things and then getting caught with our pants down, but we probably just have to accept that the government will have access to information that isn't in the public domain and even a government as incompetent as the one we're currently saddled with isn't going to start sabre rattling at Putin without a fair degree of certainty that it is justified. It's certainly not an instinct that I'd normally have, but maybe we just need to accept that the government is right about this.

As for the conspiracy theories, why on Earth would May be so desperate to find an excuse to start a row with a nuclear armed lunatic like Putin?

[Spijed]

What happens now with the sharing of data on things like Islamic state?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-p ... -zf6fncsfn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[UpTheBeehole]

What happens now with the sharing of data on things like Islamic state?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-p ... -zf6fncsfn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure we'll still club together to bomb the Kurds who are fighting against IS in Syria.

[Jeffbfc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43433552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Murder enquire now for the other Russian found dead.
Compression of the neck.

[ElectroClaret]

Breaking News.... The death of a 68 year old Russian businessman found dead at his London home
is now being treated as murder. (BBC) Nikolai Glushkov had links to the late oligarch Boris Berezovsky.
Murder by neck compression.

Wow, Vlad's having a busy week.....

[Rick_Muller]

Well I found this amusing...

5224A4C5-033E-4941-BE7A-115A9E178988.jpeg (207.94 KiB) Viewed 3162 times

[TractorFace]

I'm beginning to wonder whether all this is the work of a lose cannon. Someone gone rogue and settling old scores either for themselves or a third party.

[Lancasterclaret]

Could be, as long as you understand that the loose cannon is actually the President of Russia

[TractorFace]

Maybe so with the Novichok attempt, but not necessarily so for the Glushkov killing.

[bluelabrador16]

Bothered By Midgies ......Craig Murray

"In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack. The abuse has mostly been on twitter, and much of the most venomous stuff has come from corporate and state media “journalists”. I suppose I am a standing rebuke to them for merely being stenographers to power and never doing any actual research, but that hardly explains the visceral levels of hatred exhibited......

..A Mr Kevin Smyth who completely demolished Davis with a simple polite question:



https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... y-midgies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No evidence!

[Lancasterclaret]

"completely demolished"

Ha, its almost like you think you can get the stuff to make this down the local sainsburys.

[ElectroClaret]

Helluva lot o' coincidences occuring.....

And Elvis is still employed down the chip shop.

[beddie]

Sarum. It's important that you contact the Police, they have been asking for anyone that had visited the restaurant to contact them, in your case they would definitely want to speak with you, you may of course already done so, if that's the case then forgive me for bringing it up again.

[karatekid]

[url]/url]

[IanMcL]

Brexit off the menu and don't I look like a strong leader.
I brushed those Brits away and am your strongest leader.
I stepped in to show my solidarity to the Brits against those Russkies - I am the Brit protector. Will you let me visit now?


Just noticed predictive text amendments!

[BarstewardsEnquiry]

The thing that has got me scratching my head is why go to all the trouble of bringing a nerve agent 2000 miles, across countless national borders, with the risk of being stopped multiple times, the risk of poisoning oneself, commiting the attempted murder in public when a good old gun with a silencer or a dagger in a quiet place would have had more of an impact.

[Rick_Muller]

The thing that has got me scratching my head is why go to all the trouble of bringing a nerve agent 2000 miles, across countless national borders, with the risk of being stopped multiple times, the risk of poisoning oneself, commiting the attempted murder in public when a good old gun with a silencer or a dagger in a quiet place would have had more of an impact.

...or a fumbled mugging gone wrong - almost anything is simpler than using a nerve agent in the manner described - unless we’re meant to conclude what we’ve been told to conclude.

[Lancasterclaret]

They put the nerve agent in the luggage of his daughter when she left Moscow.

[Rick_Muller]

They put the nerve agent in the luggage of his daughter when she left Moscow.

Have you considered that his daughter might be the instigator of the exposure? It’s a plausible explanation that doesn’t necessarily involve Putin, but could be an act by someone opposed to Putin who wants to further destabilise the world, which is what is happening.

[Lancasterclaret]

ok, lets go with your theory

Someone in Russia wants to destabilize the world.

That someone has access to a very rare military grade nerve agent

That someone makes sure that they have all they need to get that nerve agent through two sets of customs inspections and x-ray machines

That someone decides to target someone that is Russian

Just change "someone" to "Putin"

Then there is the other side

Which someone in Russia has the power to do this.

Which someone in Russia wants to weaken Western Democracies so that his grip on power isn't weakened

Which someone in Russia has previous for bumping off opposition (and journalists for that matter)

Which someone in Russia want to test if Brexit and an incompetent government has weakened our other alliances

Which someone in Russia has spent the last five years aggressively pushing the narrative of "all Russians are under my protection" which means he includes the populations of the countries of eight NATO allies as rightfully Russian.

Just change "someone" to "Putin".

Its Putin, and he's done this to prove that he can, and he's testing us (and the West) to see what we will do.

[Rick_Muller]

You summed up your view in the last paragraph quite clearly, I’ll keep questioning because it’s the right thing to do.

[Lancasterclaret]

Because its based on the available evidence and historical precedents.

All other conclusions are based on no evidence and a complete disregard for historical precedents.