Robbing plumber

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:12 pm

Just had a bill for an "emergency call out" to check a leaking tundish... £150 for the 45 mins he was here (Fri afternoon around 2pm).

Further charge of 170 for a part around £100 and presumably an hour's labour (took him 20 mins)

Since these ******* cowboys seem to be able to charge what they like without having anything being said verbal or written on the internet this seems like an absolute rip off.

What shall I do?

(Lawyers are snakes but even they only charge per unit at 6 mins)

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:13 pm

Just pay him what you think he was worth and leave him to solve the problem..Robbing Bastid..

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:16 pm

Well I don't really want to be sued but then again why am I going to pay nearly 330 for something that everyone on the internet seems to think would cost around 200 quid tops?

Valuable lesson learned here about not asking prices up front... Don't ever forget that everyone is a robbing c word these days

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:19 pm

Any working class northern man has mates who can fix problems at mates rates. If you don't then you pay the going rate + a bit nowadays.

Get down the local and start making friends who can fix things.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:20 pm

ask him if he's written the price down correctly, that way he knows you are questioning it

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:22 pm

He didn't write anything down.

Asked for a plumber on a Friday, they said one could come and that was that.

Even expecting a "fallout" charge I was expecting 50-75 quid and about 50 per hour tops.

Not 70 per hour for 30 mins work and 150 to come round my house

Jeffbfc · Post by **Jeffbfc** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:25 pm

starting_11 wrote:He didn't write anything down.

Asked for a plumber on a Friday, they said one could come and that was that.

Even expecting a "fallout" charge I was expecting 50-75 quid and about 50 per hour tops.

Not 70 per hour for 30 mins work and 150 to come round my house

When you said asked, who did you ask?

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:27 pm

His missus runs the office, I think it's just him and her

Nothing was mentioned about any charges on the phone. Quite frankly I'd have laughed them off then when hanging up, I'd have rang up the local.college and booked myself on a plumbing course!

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:27 pm

Yeah where did you get him from?

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:33 pm

Did you agree a price in your house? Or did you just tell him to get on with the job? There are certain peculiarities about agreeing to work in your own home. If you did and the trader didn’t give you a ‘cancellation form’ he could be on a sticky wicket, when it comes to expecting to be paid.

This is from the LCC safe trader information that I work to, though it’s from the perspective of the trader rather than the consumer:

The cancellation notice should be given when the contract is formed i.e. when the customer agrees to you carrying out the work. Provided you give the correct paperwork they may still be liable to pay for any services carried out up to the point where they cancel.

The consequences of not giving cancellation rights are serious. You may find yourself subject to investigation by Trading Standards as it is a criminal offence or you may struggle to enforce the contract, meaning that customers do not have to pay for work done.

More information can be found at http://www.businesscompanion.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and searching for 'off-premises sales'. Alternatively you can contact the Safe Trader Team on 01772 535199.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:43 pm

Probably best to change the thread title to Expensive plumber.

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:47 pm

Starting_11. It's a difficult one because basically you gave them a free rein by not asking for an estimate or an overhaul cost. You could as suggested pay what you think is reasonable and let them decide if they want to sue (small claim) you for the balance, I would have thought if it's a difference of around £100.00 it's unlikely they would bother. Alternatively you could ask them for a written breakdown of the charges in order to justify the cost, as you feel it's extortionate. You could then tell them your sending payment for what you believe is reasonable for the work done. God luck.

TractorFace · Post by **TractorFace** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:04 pm

You should name & shame.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:05 pm

Who was it?
Name them.

Also ask him how much for cash, if he doesn't drop to a figure you like

Make him come and collect it in person, and give him the equivalent in 1p's

If he says cheque/bank transfer is fine, give him £200, and when he questions why it's £130 short, explain you charge an admin fee , and as you're not good with computers it took you 2 hours and you're on £65 an hour

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:07 pm

TractorFace wrote:You should name & shame.

Two could play at that game though couldn't they.

You should talk to the plumber and discuss it sensibly having failed to find out the important information before the work was carried out.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:30 pm

Big shortage of plumbers which inevitably has put the prices up for any work.

As Rowls says ask him politely to explain his charges and also why he did not let you know this before.

Ring up another plumber and ask him what he would have charged and if this is much lower mention this to the guy who did the work for you.

At the end of the day he may have taken advantage of the fact that you did not ask him for an estimate or how much his call out charges are.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:38 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Probably best to change the thread title to Expensive plumber.

Why?

Quite frankly he's lucky I called him a plumber...

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:39 pm

It's no one local, unless ur in S warks

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:55 pm

Well that changes the goalposts...

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:57 pm

I'd have thought the basic thing would be to get an idea of the price of somebody's work before engaging their services.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:58 pm

No offence to the OP but if I had a leaking tundish I'd go to poundland for a receptacle to collect said drips then ring round.In fairness to plumber if he wasnt at your house he'd be elsewhere and they might be ok with charges. ( not justifying them)

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:00 pm

To be honest (and I have to deal with tradesmen a lot) it does not even sound that expensive.
His call out rate also includes the cost / time of his travel - how far did he have to come to yours ?

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:17 pm

He asked on here for recommendations , so the Plumber was from Burnley

TractorFace · Post by **TractorFace** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:36 pm

Next time - YouTube is your friend and a visit to Screwfix.

Tw@ · Post by **Tw@** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:38 pm

I am a plumber and can confirm you have been robbed, he’s probably replaced a pressure relief valve on your unvented cylinder and £330 is very expensive

basil6345789 · Post by **basil6345789** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:39 pm

Check the price of the tundish - they start at around 12 quid.

Tw@ · Post by **Tw@** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:41 pm

A tundish is not the faulty part I wouldn’t have thought, the tundish is fitted after a PRV so you can see if the PRV is open.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:46 pm

bfccrazy wrote:Any working class northern man has mates who can fix problems at mates rates. If you don't then you pay the going rate + a bit nowadays.

Get down the local and start making friends who can fix things.

Most working class northerners are tight bastards.

Just pay the man and lesson learnt. Get a price next time and get a few quotes...

I wouldnt even get a taxi without knowing the rate. Never mind let some tradesmen loose.

chipbutty · Post by **chipbutty** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:04 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Most working class northerners are tight bastards.

Just pay the man and lesson learnt. Get a price next time and get a few quotes...

I wouldnt even get a taxi without knowing the rate. Never mind let some tradesmen loose.

I was just about to add a taxi story.. A couple of weeks ago, 4 adults and 2 kids got a taxi from Belvedere with a drop off at Hollywood Star then a drop off at Ightenhill. As we dropped off at Hollywood, we then confirmed price with driver who said £24!!!
He then dropped to £20 so I rang the base and asked them how much a taxi would be to Manchester and he said £30.

We then left the driver with £5 and rang another firm which cost £5 from Hollywood Star to home at Ightenhill.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:45 am

It's amazing how much plumbers charge these days. Or building "tradesmen" in general.
Get him to itemise it and watch his face while he tries to lose the Labour charge in exchange for a 12p washer

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:00 am

What's a tundish? Is it like a bidet?

Hendrickxz · Post by **Hendrickxz** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:00 am

Sproggy wrote:What's a tundish? Is it like a bidet?

I was wondering the same thing. I thought it might be Indian for a khazi -- oh, hang on!

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:10 am

Okay I'll go for it..

If there was true competitive pricing for stuff like this, as there should be, these prices would be much lower...everyone competing to get the business or the contract, would drive prices downwards.

This does not happen in some [so called] markets...a 'market failure' occurs.

This is what some economists would suggest can happen [not me mind, don't shoot the messenger..] - a fictional example..

In a relatively small, definable area [say Burnley and nearby villages] there may be only a small number of a certain group of tradesmen [think of your own example] offering a skill/role that we all need...let's say there are between 3 and 7/8 such firms in the area which between them have most of the business...these firms employ anything between 3 and 15 employees each. Ignore the one man bands for the moment.

In this imaginary scenario these firms can either compete aggressively with each other on price, driving prices downwards to 'get the business'..and driving total joint profits downwards..[all to our benefit]

OR

- they can agree NOT to compete on price but to set up a cosy price-fixing arrangement which delivers high prices and high profits for all, without the boring aggravation caused by REAL competition.

These agreements are easily put together...a few drinks in a wine bar or hotel lounge one evening...handshakes and a few follow up e-mails.
All of this is completely illegal of course..but hard to pin down and prove.

When some new 'wet behind the ears, one man band' rolls into town, willing to do business, he will soon get told the rules of the game.

This 'model' will not work if there are more than a handful of firms in the agreement...might not work in big cities where there will be more firms/more competition and less local monopolies and oligopolies ['competition amongst the few'].

Where this stuff happens the 'average Joe' will get ripped off....what is needed is proper, thorough regulation - can't see the current lot doing much about it though....they love capitalism and profits don't they?

One example - about 20 years ago my flat got burgled in Wimbledon..I had been out all day.
The [cheap] flat door got kicked in, as did my neighbour's, and the tragic drug user robbed our flats.
The insurance was paying, and I got advice from my relative [who knew the game] about a new door, the best locks, hinge bolts etc - a good solid replacement door.

I phoned around Wimbledon based joiners for about 45 minutes...I got 5 quotes..

They were all in the region of £550..[my Burnley based 'joiner' relative told me the price was scandalous]
These prices were clearly fixed between them..there was no price competition [as capitalism predicts there should be]
I didn't care about the price, the insurance was paying.

How do you think the insurance companies fund this stuff?

How many markets do we get ripped off in every week?...even when we THINK we are in a competitive environment?

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:21 am

You mean like the window cleaner agreement/etiquette that is clearly in place everywhere.

If you wanted too, you can't sack your window cleaner as no other person would come and do it as there's a code.
So whether he's sh1te or not you're stuck with him.

I'm not saying I am, but I've known friends and family who can't do anything than go with the 1 that does that street/area.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:29 am

I purposely didn't mention 'that group of workers' [salt of the earth, the lot of 'em] Macca, because when I did so on the previous incarnation of this forum, I got 'leaned on' by a couple of heavies who told me quite clearly to PUT A SOCK IN IT..

These lads had just signed up to the forum, and never posted again.

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:56 am

I'm not saying Hampsteads scenario couldn't happen, but in my experience it doesn't.

When you are asked for a price you give it based on various factors, not least of which is whether the job sounds like something you want to get involved with - time of day, location, likelihood the customer is going to be a tit etc. There's no cosy little pricing arrangement that I've ever been included in and part of my business deals with exactly the sort of thing that would be prone to Hampsteads description.

This guy has obviously decided to chance his arm given that the job was described as some sort of emergency call out.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:23 am

Fair enough dushanbe I believe you if you say that.

Do you ever discuss prices with any local competitors..?

Have you a fair idea of what they are charging for similar types of work to what you are doing?

If over a number of years, it became clear to you that your 5 closest business rivals were charging an average 20% more than you for all jobs, would you raise your prices to match their's..?

- why wouldn't you, it wouldn't make you any less competitive?

*You don't have to answer these of course, that's up to you.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Even where no price fixing deals have been done..no conversations, no meetings, no e-mails, no agreements...illegal price fixing deals can still occur where prices are similar or the same...prosecutions can occur.

- often there will be a market leader...say Barclays, Shell, Vodaphone, British Airways, Kelloggs - and the other firms just copy what they do without a word being exchanged. This is illegal.

It is difficult to successfully prosecute these cases because firms have been very clever about covering their tracks....also a lack of regulatory manpower [surprised anyone? ]

I believe that the only markets that we the customer DOESN'T get ripped off in, are those with very high levels of competition within them...not that many of these.

The beauty of capitalism.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:57 am

bfccrazy wrote:Any working class northern man has mates who can fix problems at mates rates. If you don't then you pay the going rate + a bit nowadays.

Get down the local and start making friends who can fix things.

Excellent advice

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:04 am

hampsteadclaret wrote:Okay I'll go for it..

If there was true competitive pricing for stuff like this, as there should be, these prices would be much lower...everyone competing to get the business or the contract, would drive prices downwards.

This does not happen in some [so called] markets...a 'market failure' occurs.

This is what some economists would suggest can happen [not me mind, don't shoot the messenger..] - a fictional example..

In a relatively small, definable area [say Burnley and nearby villages] there may be only a small number of a certain group of tradesmen [think of your own example] offering a skill/role that we all need...let's say there are between 3 and 7/8 such firms in the area which between them have most of the business...these firms employ anything between 3 and 15 employees each. Ignore the one man bands for the moment.

In this imaginary scenario these firms can either compete aggressively with each other on price, driving prices downwards to 'get the business'..and driving total joint profits downwards..[all to our benefit]

OR

- they can agree NOT to compete on price but to set up a cosy price-fixing arrangement which delivers high prices and high profits for all, without the boring aggravation caused by REAL competition.

These agreements are easily put together...a few drinks in a wine bar or hotel lounge one evening...handshakes and a few follow up e-mails.
All of this is completely illegal of course..but hard to pin down and prove.

When some new 'wet behind the ears, one man band' rolls into town, willing to do business, he will soon get told the rules of the game.

This 'model' will not work if there are more than a handful of firms in the agreement...might not work in big cities where there will be more firms/more competition and less local monopolies and oligopolies ['competition amongst the few'].

Where this stuff happens the 'average Joe' will get ripped off....what is needed is proper, thorough regulation - can't see the current lot doing much about it though....they love capitalism and profits don't they?

One example - about 20 years ago my flat got burgled in Wimbledon..I had been out all day.
The [cheap] flat door got kicked in, as did my neighbour's, and the tragic drug user robbed our flats.
The insurance was paying, and I got advice from my relative [who knew the game] about a new door, the best locks, hinge bolts etc - a good solid replacement door.

I phoned around Wimbledon based joiners for about 45 minutes...I got 5 quotes..

They were all in the region of £550..[my Burnley based 'joiner' relative told me the price was scandalous]
These prices were clearly fixed between them..there was no price competition [as capitalism predicts there should be]
I didn't care about the price, the insurance was paying.

How do you think the insurance companies fund this stuff?

How many markets do we get ripped off in every week?...even when we THINK we are in a competitive environment?

Dont get me started on insurance.

Someone recentky drove into my car. Complete accident but entirely his fault. The damage fortunately was reasonably minor and aesthetic. Basically a large Scratch down the rear passanger side over the wheel arch.

This could and should have been a simple job and the bloke who drove into me offered to pay to get it fixed rather than insurance job. I wouldve been happy with that too but for the fact when i returned my last car I got stung for £1,500 for a few stone chips!!!! So I thought best way is to do it properly and avoid risking a bad job or being penalised for not using a dealer garage. In grand scheme of things the insurance shouldnt cost him any more than him paying cash. And short term possibly not.

Anyway. Cut a long boring story short. Car got taking in to local dealer approved garage. To clean up said minor scratch how long do you think it took them to repair? Half an hour? Half a day? No ELEVEN DAYS.

So my car was in the garage for 11 days. Thats however many hundred quid a day for storage. However much labour time they claim it took. Materials and parts etc. And the small issue of needing a courtesy car for 11 days.

Obviously (in the short term at least) this didnt cost me or him a huge amount. But this is one example about how and why insurance companies (and the garages and the car hire comapanies) are profiteering from us.

Anyway. Ramble over.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:27 am

Not a ramble at all.

Just an example of what [BIG] business can do to us.

The days of 'consumer sovereignty' and the customer is always right, are long gone I am afraid.

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:35 am

[quote="hampsteadclaret"]Fair enough dushanbe I believe you if you say that.

Do you ever discuss prices with any local competitors..?

No. I do sometimes speak to them, in fact I had a phone call this morning with one but pricing never comes up.

Have you a fair idea of what they are charging for similar types of work to what you are doing?

Yes. Pricing is both scientific and finger in the air. Generally, tradespeople charge as much as they can get away with - prices go to a level where you get the odd complaint or comment and at that point you know you are about right and the job price won't stand anymore.

If over a number of years, it became clear to you that your 5 closest business rivals were charging an average 20% more than you for all jobs, would you raise your prices to match their's..?

- why wouldn't you, it wouldn't make you any less competitive?

Its an interesting point but it comes back to what I said above. You try and maximise the price to a level where you are happy and the customer is happy. Some jobs are a bigger pain in the arse than others and everyone has a different pain threshold. Some people might not want to travel too far, others might draw the line at particular jobs after a particular time of day. Yet others might base pricing around the type of equipment they are being asked to work on or with. I won't be alone in quoting a daft price for a job I don't particularly want to do, but would do it at the daft price.

Bottom line is, I've never been made aware of any organised cartel type arrangement. Occasionally a customer will ring and say they've been quoted X by Y and literally ask me if its reasonable.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:39 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote: Obviously (in the short term at least) this didnt cost me or him a huge amount. But this is one example about how and why insurance companies (and the garages and the car hire comapanies) are profiteering from us.

That's not the insurance companies profiteering from you.

That's the garage profiteering from the insurance company, who in turn pass that on to drivers.

It's the garage taking the p*ss, because they know they can.

BarstewardsEnquiry · Post by **BarstewardsEnquiry** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:44 am

Pay him what you think is a fair price then the onus is on him to chase you for more which I'm pretty sure he won't.
I had a plumber round to quote for a problem with my boiler "thermistor sensor" x2 he said. £40 for each part and 2 hours labour @ £ 40 per hour.
I bought the exact part off the Internet £5 for the pair and it took 7 minutes to fit with no previous experience, it has worked perfectly since November.
Lot of chancers working in the trades these days. As has been said forums and YouTube are good sources.

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:53 am

dushanbe wrote: Its an interesting point but it comes back to what I said above. You try and maximise the price to a level where you are happy and the customer is happy. Some jobs are a bigger pain in the arse than others and everyone has a different pain threshold. Some people might not want to travel too far, others might draw the line at particular jobs after a particular time of day. Yet others might base pricing around the type of equipment they are being asked to work on or with. I won't be alone in quoting a daft price for a job I don't particularly want to do, but would do it at the daft price.

This.

Doesn't even just apply to tradesmen, businesses do it too. If you're going to come to an engineering firm looking to get parts made in dribs and drabs when they have to recommission equipment or haul tooling out of storage they're going to give you a quote that makes you think twice. If you take it, great - they've got a price that makes up for the faff. If not, great - they've not got a job to do that was a lot of effort.

As for the OP. Put it down to experience. If I'm reading right you called up on a Friday saying you needed something fixing today, they came out you presumably asked them to fix it without getting a price and they did it. Everyone knows plumbers will charge a call out for same day work and if you don't ask for the price upfront you're just asking for them to take the mick. Personally I'd have either got a few quotes and scheduled it in for a few weeks time and left a bucket under the leak or I'd have had a look at the issue and popped down to Screwfix before fixing it myself.

Alanstevensonsgloves · Post by **Alanstevensonsgloves** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:58 am

I need some plumbing done a year ago. Called up one guy who had been recommended as good and reasonably priced. I told him the job over the phone, he told me it would take 3 hours and cost of part was x amount and his labour was x amount per hour so I booked him. He came and did the did the job in two hours and still charged me for 3 hours. When I questioned this, he told me that he had factored in driving across from his previous job. Surely it is not my business which job he has just come from? Then when I asked him for a receipt for my money he almost had a heart attack!

Won't be using him again!!!

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:01 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:That's not the insurance companies profiteering from you.

That's the garage profiteering from the insurance company, who in turn pass that on to drivers.

It's the garage taking the p*ss, because they know they can.

Before id even arranged a garage, the insurance company were hounding me about what courtesy car to get. When to get it etc. It was a bloody scratch. The car was driveable.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:32 pm

Probably just gross incompetence.

I once had a non fault go into a direct line owned garage. It took them 3 weeks to sort a wing and a new wheel.