Alder Hey

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Inchy
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by Inchy » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:18 am

tybfc wrote:I've probably posted too much on this but anyway.

Why do the local courts, the court in Manchester, The Supreme Court, the court of appeal and the European court of Human Rights have the right to stop parents taking their child on a two hour flight in a last try to save or prolong his life?

He seems clearly in no pain.

If he dies as the medics here says he is going to do in the next few days then so be it but surely the parents should be granted the last decision of what happens and where?

They should let them take him to Rome if that is what the family want and Alfie is not in pain at all.

I think it’s very difficult to judge someone’s pain when they have severe brain damage.

I assume the courts don’t want to set a president where every end of life decision is questioned by pro life Christians groups
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deanothedino
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by deanothedino » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:52 am

tybfc wrote:I've probably posted too much on this but anyway.

Why do the local courts, the court in Manchester, The Supreme Court, the court of appeal and the European court of Human Rights have the right to stop parents taking their child on a two hour flight in a last try to save or prolong his life?

He seems clearly in no pain.

If he dies as the medics here says he is going to do in the next few days then so be it but surely the parents should be granted the last decision of what happens and where?

They should let them take him to Rome if that is what the family want and Alfie is not in pain at all.
As sad and tragic as the situation is, what you have to remember here is that the child is as good as dead. There is no chance of recovery, the Italians aren't offering a cure, Alfie will die. Why prolong his life when he has no quality of life, and could be in pain (as Inchy says, very difficult to know whether someone with so litte brain function is in pain).

I can't imagine what it is like for the parents but I suspect one day the father may look back and wish he spent less time in court, less time with nutjob Christian organisations and more time with his son in his last days.
Last edited by deanothedino on Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ElectroClaret
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by ElectroClaret » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:24 am

deanothedino wrote:
I can't imagine what it is like for the parents but I suspect one day the father may look back and wish he spent less time in court, less time with nutjob Christian organisations and more time with his son in his last days.
Absolutely spot on.

claretspice
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by claretspice » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:40 am

tybfc wrote:I've probably posted too much on this but anyway.

Why do the local courts, the court in Manchester, The Supreme Court, the court of appeal and the European court of Human Rights have the right to stop parents taking their child on a two hour flight in a last try to save or prolong his life?

He seems clearly in no pain.

If he dies as the medics here says he is going to do in the next few days then so be it but surely the parents should be granted the last decision of what happens and where?
Because, presumably, your representation of the evidence as to suffering and pain doesn't align with the medical evidence that has been presented to the courts (and not only by Alder Hey). If there was no perceived medical downside to this then this wouldn't have got to this point. You've got medics, hospital staff and countless judges who have now all weighed this up as rationally as any human being can. Frankly, that ought to be enough for anyone, most particularly those of us who are so far removed from the facts.

Take your final sentence to its logic conclusion, incidentally, and the parents could reasonably argue they have the right to accelerate the end of this life artificially. No-one, most of all the people actually bankrolling this case, believe that parents have the right to choose that course of action should they decide it is in the best interests of the child - we don't allow assisted suicide even when the person whose life will be ended is old enough and rational enough to make the choice for themelves. So clearly, there are limits to a parent's ability to choose.

I said earlier, we're all the poorer for the demonization of medical professionals who do everything in their power to help, and the personalisation of attacks on others involved in this case is deeply worrying for society too.
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Funkydrummer
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by Funkydrummer » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:16 am

deanothedino wrote: I can't imagine what it is like for the parents but I suspect one day the father may look back and wish he spent less time in court, less time with nutjob Christian organisations and more time with his son in his last days.
Cracking way of putting it, absolutely spot on . Great post.

aggi
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by aggi » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:01 am

You can have sympathy with the father's position. He's got someone in his ear saying, maybe he's not dying, take him to Italy, maybe we can cure him, those doctors don't know everything. It's got to be tempting to grasp that thread of hope and think maybe they're telling you the truth and not just exploiting you for their own beliefs.

I don't have sympathy for those protesting at the hospital. By all means protest at the courts or whatever but hassling doctors and patients isn't helping anyone.

UpTheBeehole
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by UpTheBeehole » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:18 am

Every one of those scrubbers outside Alder Hey should have been given ASBOs as soon as it started happening.
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starting_11
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by starting_11 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:20 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Every one of those scrubbers outside Alder Hey should have been given ASBOs as soon as it started happening.
Sort of along your sentiments but could the hospital now start injunctions against the reporting or publishing of information relating to patients there?

Would be nice to see these Facebook groups spouting lies and nonsense as being illegal.

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Re: Alder Hey

Post by starting_11 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:21 am

If u can do it if you're rich and famous to stop people knowing you shagged a prostitute or whatever, you should be able to use it to protect patients and hospital staff

Jel
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by Jel » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:04 pm

Scousers again!

KeighleyClaret
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by KeighleyClaret » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:37 pm

The Children Act, which is in general a very good piece of legislation, starts as follows:
'1. In all matters, the interests of the child shall be paramount'

This overrides the interests of Doctors, Nurses, Budget holders and even Parents, in all things the Law is that the interests of the Child come first. If you read the judgements in this case it is 100% clear that all the Judgements have been made in this way - initially by the medics and latterly by the Court. The latest Supreme Court judgement graphically describes the brain as being 'now almost 100% water'.

Breathing continues because this is controlled by the brain stem and is a reflex driven purely by the need for Oxygen. No higher functions are left - he cannot feel, move, see, hear or think.

The reason it is wrong to allow him to go to Italy is because it cannot serve any possible interest of the Child. It might possibly help the parents feel better, but in Law their interests come second.

Time to allow this poor chap to end his life with dignity.
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ClaretDiver
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by ClaretDiver » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:15 pm

Why are Poland now getting involved????

ClaretAndJew
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by ClaretAndJew » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:21 pm

Just a Polish doctor, not Poland.

ClaretDiver
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by ClaretDiver » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:26 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:Just a Polish doctor, not Poland.
The Polish President has got involved and there are now protesters outside the British Embassy in Poland.....

Burnleybabe
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by Burnleybabe » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:27 pm

If I was Alder Hey, I would just let them get on and do what they want.
This family have caused problems for the staff and parents of other Children in the Hospital.
Yes of course it is heartbreaking, but TBH as a mother If I was in this situation, I would prefer for my child to pass away quietly.
Why has Tom not asked these protesters to stop the harassment of Staff and fellow patients.
He seems to be influenced by others and making his Sons condition a media circus

Burnleybabe
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by Burnleybabe » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:29 pm

KeighleyClaret wrote:The Children Act, which is in general a very good piece of legislation, starts as follows:
'1. In all matters, the interests of the child shall be paramount'

This overrides the interests of Doctors, Nurses, Budget holders and even Parents, in all things the Law is that the interests of the Child come first. If you read the judgements in this case it is 100% clear that all the Judgements have been made in this way - initially by the medics and latterly by the Court. The latest Supreme Court judgement graphically describes the brain as being 'now almost 100% water'.

Breathing continues because this is controlled by the brain stem and is a reflex driven purely by the need for Oxygen. No higher functions are left - he cannot feel, move, see, hear or think.

The reason it is wrong to allow him to go to Italy is because it cannot serve any possible interest of the Child. It might possibly help the parents feel better, but in Law their interests come second.

Time to allow this poor chap to end his life with dignity.
Spot on

ClaretDiver
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by ClaretDiver » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:29 pm

Burnleybabe wrote:If I was Alder Hey, I would just let them get on and do what they want.
This family have caused problems for the staff and parents of other Children in the Hospital.
Yes of course it is heartbreaking, but TBH as a mother If I was in this situation, I would prefer for my child to pass away quietly.
Why has Tom not asked these protesters to stop the harassment of Staff and fellow patients.
He seems to be influenced by others and making his Sons condition a media circus
Absolutely, he is being driven by some Christian Pro Life Group intent on prolonging this.....such a shame....

KeighleyClaret
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by KeighleyClaret » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:04 pm

Burnleybabe wrote:If I was Alder Hey, I would just let them get on and do what they want.
They can't. They have a duty of care to the Child which overrides everything else. It would be so much easier to cave in, but wrong. The Court has supported their position as being in the Childs best interests at every step.

Its a shame that the Hospital is being more protective of a Child's interests than his parents. The fundamental duty of a Parent is to do the right thing for their child. They are not doing that.
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mdd2
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by mdd2 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:08 pm

Given the state of the poor child it doesn't matter to him where he goes as he has no feelings whatsoever if we believe what the Judges have said about him-so it matters not to the child where he ends his life or whether his death is prolonged by more organ support. I cannot therefore follow why it has not been possible for his family to take him to ITALY provided funding is not provided by our NHS
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thatdberight
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by thatdberight » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:40 pm

mdd2 wrote:Given the state of the poor child it doesn't matter to him where he goes as he has no feelings whatsoever if we believe what the Judges have said about him-so it matters not to the child.
So the parents can do anything they want to him? That's your logic.

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Re: Alder Hey

Post by mdd2 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:04 pm

thatdberight wrote:So the parents can do anything they want to him? That's your logic.
No but they could take him where he has been offered care which they would like him to have and as he seems to be impervious to suffering I cannot see why not.
I realise what the childrens act says and means but this sorry state of affairs will affect two other people, his parents and one has to ask if the child is not going to be harmed in anyway by being taken to Italy, it may benefit his parents in the long term and avoid a prolonged grief reaction and guilt in them in the future.
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ClaretAndJew
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by ClaretAndJew » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:10 pm

But they aren't offering him any real form of care in Italy, just more palliative care, like he's already receiving.

deanothedino
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by deanothedino » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:23 pm

mdd2 wrote:No but they could take him where he has been offered care which they would like him to have and as he seems to be impervious to suffering I cannot see why not.
I realise what the childrens act says and means but this sorry state of affairs will affect two other people, his parents and one has to ask if the child is not going to be harmed in anyway by being taken to Italy, it may benefit his parents in the long term and avoid a prolonged grief reaction and guilt in them in the future.
Do you think this is any sort of life? Because this is the best they can hope for. Terribly sad in my opinion and I know I wouldn't want to 'live' like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CXFeUH4GFU

PutTheWheelieBinsOut
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:01 pm

From the BBC: The father of seriously ill toddler Alfie Evans says he wants to "build his relationship" with the hospital he has been locked in a legal battle with.

Tom Evans, who has been fighting to take 23-month-old Alfie out of Alder Hey Children's Hospital, said he now wanted to be "left alone" to do so.

He praised the "professionalism" and "dignity" of the staff at the hospital where his son is being treated.

He also thanked supporters Alfie's Army but asked them "to go home".

In a statement on behalf of himself and Alfie's mother, Kate James, he said: "We are very grateful and we appreciate all the support we have received from around the world, including from our Italian and Polish supporters, who have dedicated their time and support to our incredible fight.

"We would now ask you to return back to your everyday lives and allow myself, Kate and Alder Hey to form a relationship, build a bridge and walk across it."
Very easy to sit behind our keyboards and criticise a young man, doing what he believes is the best for his son. Too many fathers are not there for their children, they have weak excuses and give up on their own children, well rightly or wrongly Tom has never given up.

Bordeauxclaret
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:48 pm

I’ve got a lot of sympathy for the parents to be honest. I don’t think it would be possible to be rational about any decision in that situation.

That latest statement seems to be a big change, I wouldn’t be surprised if some legal action had been threatened.

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Re: Alder Hey

Post by claretspice » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:10 pm

mdd2 wrote:Given the state of the poor child it doesn't matter to him where he goes as he has no feelings whatsoever if we believe what the Judges have said about him-so it matters not to the child where he ends his life or whether his death is prolonged by more organ support. I cannot therefore follow why it has not been possible for his family to take him to ITALY provided funding is not provided by our NHS
But you're wrong about the evidence. It is that he is suffering (not in the sense of feeling pain, but suffering nonetheless), and could be forced to suffer more by the trauma of being moved to Italy and the risks associated with being out of the hospital environment. That is the evidence. That is the point. That is why every court in the land has said, regretfully, it is not in the child's interests.

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Re: Alder Hey

Post by ClaretDiver » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:05 am

RIP baby Alfie, may you rest in peace and fly high!
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Caballo
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Re: Alder Hey

Post by Caballo » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:08 am

The sad but inevitable conclusion to this saga is reached, hope all involved can find some peace.

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