England cricket squad for 1st test v Pakistan

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Thu May 24, 2018 4:49 pm

Cook showed that runs can be scored if you apply yourself,sadly the rest haven't got the patience or technique to play a long test match innings.Credit to Pakistan they bowled well and applied pressure but that should be expected on the first day of a test match.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Thu May 24, 2018 5:13 pm

Pakistan 12-1 lbw on review.

Buxtonclaret · Post by **Buxtonclaret** » Thu May 24, 2018 5:18 pm

Embarrassing batting performance today.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Thu May 24, 2018 5:22 pm

B6ordeauxclaret wrote:I wonder what our average score in the 1st innings of a series has been over the last 4 or five years.
Always seem to struggle.

Strangely enough it has not been as bad as you may think, although the last 2 match series in New Zealand we averaged just 183, therefore we were just 1 run ahead of that today.
Going back to 2013 out lowest average was in Australia in a 5 match series when we averaged 194.
The lowest since then apart from the NZ series was against Bangladesh in 2016 in a 2 match series when we averaged 269.
Apart from that we have played 14 series of tests againt varied opposition and have averaged from 313 against Australia in a 5 match series up to 470 in a 2 match series against Sri Lanka. The mean average of all the 67 tests played since 2013 and before the current one is 333 runs scored in the first innings.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Thu May 24, 2018 5:55 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:Strangely enough it has not been as bad as you may think, although the last 2 match series in New Zealand we averaged just 183, therefore we were just 1 run ahead of that today.
Going back to 2013 out lowest average was in Australia in a 5 match series when we averaged 194.
The lowest since then apart from the NZ series was against Bangladesh in 2016 in a 2 match series when we averaged 269.
Apart from that we have played 14 series of tests againt varied opposition and have averaged from 313 against Australia in a 5 match series up to 470 in a 2 match series against Sri Lanka. The mean average of all the 67 tests played since 2013 and before the current one is 333 runs scored in the first innings.

Thanks. Certainly makes interesting reading.

I was just referring to the very first England innings of each series. Just wondering what the average is there going back. It just always seems we start poorly lately.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Thu May 24, 2018 6:44 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Thanks. Certainly makes interesting reading.

I was just referring to the very first England innings of each series. Just wondering what the average is there going back. It just always seems we start poorly lately.

2013 ---in New Zealand 167: New Zealand at home 232: Australia 215: in Australia 136:
2014 ---Sri Lanka at home 575: India at home 496:
2015 ---in West Indies 399: New Zealand at home 389: Australia 430: Pakistan (in Abu Dhabi) 598:
2016 ---in South Africa 303: Sri Lanka at home 298: Pakistan 272: Bangla Desh 293: in India 537:
2017 ---South Africa at home 458: West Indies 514: in Australia 302:
2018 ---in New Zealand 58: Pakistan (today) 184:

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Thu May 24, 2018 6:58 pm

So nowhere near as bad as I thought then!

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Thu May 24, 2018 7:02 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:So nowhere near as bad as I thought then!

No it isn't, however, this year does not make good reading at all and we have only won one and drawn one of our last nine test matches.
It is time we got our finger out!!

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Fri May 25, 2018 9:26 am

I was there yesterday. Cook had that bit of luck you need as he played and missed countless times, even when he had plenty of runs under his belt. Mallan, for example nicked the first one which deviated and was gonners. There WERE some poor shots out there too (Root/Butler...), but the ball was doing plenty and Pakistan are no mugs at using it (and nor are we). Lords tests haven't been generally high scoring for a while now, unlike The Oval, Edgbaston and Trent bridge for example where teams who get in can bat for days. Any team reaching 245 is very competitive at Lords and we fell somewhat short. On another note, it struck me that Jimmy A suddenly doesn't look as fearsome in those (helpful) conditions as he usually is and may be reaching the beginning of the end, IF they can find a decent replacement.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Fri May 25, 2018 10:09 am

Agree with your jist there Dark Cloud. Somewhere approaching 250 would have been a very decent start with Pakistan having to bat last (and a score like that would've justified the decision to bat). It was difficult batting but there were a few who threw it away- Root's wide slash was particularly galling given he's supposed to be leading the team.
I hope you're wrong about Jimmy though (and he's been a bit of a "comeback king" through his career). I thought he couldve bowled another couple last evening but he'll have his chance this morning with humidity at 70%+ and plenty of grey cloud about (no pun etc).
The weather forecast is for high humidity/plenty of cloud/thundery showers etc over the next efw days so it's not going to be a draw.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:18 pm

Approaching tea and Pakistan are 208-4 building a useful lead,unless there is a clatter of wickets in the evening session England face a testing third day.
Three dropped catches don't exactly help,normally England are efficient in the field,the debutant spinner has bowled OK but apart from Jimmy the bowling looks predictable.Time for a rain dance,Just to point out a 3rd half-century for a visiting batsman puts England's effort into perspective.

rufus lumley · Post by **rufus lumley** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:34 pm

I think I could make a quick 50 with Bess bowling at both ends .

bedfords · Post by **bedfords** » Fri May 25, 2018 4:07 pm

rufus lumley wrote:I think I could make a quick 50 with Bess bowling at both ends .

1st I've seen of him but looks like we've unearthed another spinner that doesn't spin it. Hopefully he turns out to be the next Swann (not the one that played for Lancs).

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Fri May 25, 2018 5:26 pm

Is it too early to relieve Root from his captaincy duties yet?

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Fri May 25, 2018 8:29 pm

Root is an inexperienced captain but the batsman continually underperform and the bowlers are not much better, 4 right arm fast-medium seamers who all have trouble bowling right lengths. Australia, NZ and now Pakistan know how to play 5 day test cricket, our T/20 guys are clueless in the longer form of the game. Vaughan, Brearley, Clive Lloyd and Ponting would have difficulty captaining this shower.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Fri May 25, 2018 8:44 pm

CleggHall wrote:Root is an inexperienced captain but the batsman continually underperform and the bowlers are not much better, 4 right arm fast-medium seamers who all have trouble bowling right lengths. Australia, NZ and now Pakistan know how to play 5 day test cricket, our T/20 guys are clueless in the longer form of the game. Vaughan, Brearley, Clive Lloyd and Ponting would have difficulty captaining this shower.

Spot on our batting in the tests is a shambles.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri May 25, 2018 8:46 pm

CleggHall wrote:. Vaughan, Brearley, Clive Lloyd and Ponting would have difficulty captaining this shower.

True, but every one of those would have been very pleased to win the toss and inserted the opposition in yesterday's conditions and on that pitch.
(Except possibly Ponting, since the Australian policy at that time was to bat, make as many as they could, and then leave it to McGrath and Warne.)
I'm afraid there are many issues with Root's captaincy. His decision to waste a review when Cook - perfectly positioned at 1st slip - told him that the ball had deviated off the batters elbow - not the bat, was just one today.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Fri May 25, 2018 9:22 pm

I'm also in the camp that thinks Root has under-performed here so far. Ridiculous shot to get out when batting at 3 on a tricky morning when he'd won the toss and needed the side to tough it out the first 40-50 overs. Slip placement appears a problem, not sure he's rotated the bowlers to best advantage and (as above) not as good at judging a review as Cook.
He seems to be "playing it by numbers" re bowling spells/changes rather than reacting to what's going on in front of him. Some of it must be down to the whole management team though rather than just him.
To be fair, Pakistan have had the bulk of the luck but they've deserved it because they've applied themselves much better.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri May 25, 2018 10:23 pm

Pakistan haven't done anything special in this test,but crucially they have done the basics well,put England under pressure on the first morning,and held all their catches,and when they got a bat in their hand played sensible cricket to bat England out of the game effectively barring a monumental effort from England in our second dig.Agree Root is a predictable captain it can't be coincidence that Anderson struck straight after changing ends.And the review was just daft his senior player and former skipper informed him the ball hadn't hit the bat and still Root went against his judgement.All that said the batsman Cook apart should have shown much more fight and made the bowlers work for the wickets.

One radical solution i would consider is not picking any players who choose to play in the IPL,this must seem strict but you get the impression England test matches are not a priority for many players,at the very least some of the batsman should have played a few innings in the County Championship which Cook did he scored runs for Essex also so he was prepared for an English Summer,heaven knows how many runs the Indian batters will rack up later in the season.

Cheeseontoast · Post by **Cheeseontoast** » Sat May 26, 2018 2:59 pm

Pakistan are ripping England a new one!!!

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sat May 26, 2018 3:13 pm

This stems from the coach downwards , a coach who said play your own game , which translates to players not giving a damn,

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat May 26, 2018 3:17 pm

Innings defeat looming for England,THERE has to be changes after this match surely,Jennings should replace Stoneman as for the rest IDK.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sat May 26, 2018 3:32 pm

Well at least it looks as though we will be all out before the Championship Final starts ---very considerate of our lads.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat May 26, 2018 3:38 pm

Cook played OK 1st innings,Root played well 2nd innings but 60's and 70's don't win or save test matches,that said it's frightening what England's totals would have been without their innings,we would have struggled to pass three figures in both knocks.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat May 26, 2018 4:10 pm

Irrespective of their bowling ability, both Moeen Ali and Woakes are far more comfortable batting at test level in home conditions than some of the batting selections here, and for a test a Lords there seemed little logic in playing a 20 year old spinner who doesn't bat much.
You always feel that with those 2 coming in down the order there's a decent chance of one or both making a score. The tail is too long in this eleven bearing in mind the record of most of the top 6 / 7.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat May 26, 2018 5:07 pm

Woakes was a strange admission he usually scores a few and seems to have a knack of taking important wickets,in fairness to the young spinner he can only be effective if England give him something to bowl with,if the batsman had applied themselves on day 1 and scored 350-400 as they should,Bess could have been vital in the fourth innings,these collapses are occurring more regularly now meaning England are always playing catch-up cricket hard to win games in those circumstances.

Shore claret · Post by **Shore claret** » Sat May 26, 2018 5:33 pm

According to the BBC stokes was caught by 'undefined', never heard of him?

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Sat May 26, 2018 5:50 pm

Great partnership between Buttler and Bess

fatboy47 · Post by **fatboy47** » Sat May 26, 2018 5:56 pm

Shore claret wrote:According to the BBC stokes was caught by 'undefined', never heard of him?

all look the same do they??

disgraceful racism by the bbc

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Sat May 26, 2018 7:28 pm

A good fightback, nice to see some backbone in the team, another 100 runs tomorrow and we could have a game on our hands.Here's hoping.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat May 26, 2018 7:39 pm

Too many players don't know how to play test cricket.

Is T20 the problem, even though all the other test playing nations have players who play in the IPL and other T20 leagues?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat May 26, 2018 7:50 pm

Spijed wrote:Too many players don't know how to play test cricket.

Is T20 the problem, even though all the other test playing nations have players who play in the IPL and other T20 leagues?

I don't think T20 is the major issue, since as you point out it affects all the test sides.
It's mainly down to a lack of professionalism, application and discipline - presumably down to slack management. e.g. It hasn't quite happened in this test, but there have been several occasions in both innings when we have been fortuitous not to have calamitous run-outs. In a low scoring test the run-out simply shouldn't be an option, and then we have been unprofessional in the field, (something that T20 should eradicate).
Could you imagine this repeated shambles under Dyche?

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat May 26, 2018 11:51 pm

Well done to Buttler and Bess,but still does not excuse the pitiful batting by the top order,the captain aside and even he again failed to turn a promising start into a century.Given the weather forecast for the next couple of days England may somehow escape with a draw,still needs to be major decisions by the selectors and coaches,we will see if the have the balls to make some big calls.

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Sun May 27, 2018 7:49 am

I watched most of yesterday's play on the tv and the cameras quite often panned over to the balconies of the dressing rooms.

The Pakistani coach was never sat down and was forever sending messages out to his captain and reminded me very much of the Dyche way.

Then they showed Trevor Bayliss who sat in the same chair on his own all day with a coat on and a hood over his head and didn't seem to speak to anyone.

The captains are very much the same.

Sarfraz is captaining a very young Pakistan team from behind the wickets which can't be easy but he is forever running down the wicket and talking to his bowlers and fielders.

Joe Root just never appears as animated and his batting has certainly suffered since being appointed captain.

If we get anything out of this test match we will have been mighty lucky and it will take a massive effort probably from Buttler and Bess in the first hour this morning against a new ball to survive and then hope that the heavens open.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sun May 27, 2018 8:12 am

The coaching style just means they have done all the training all week to prepare and now it's time to trust the players.
If I played under Micky Arthur who was telling his bowlers what to bowl from the balcony, then he would of got slung the ball and told to bowl it himself.

Fair enough in a U13s game but these are international cricketers, supposedly at the top of their game.

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:The coaching style just means they have done all the training all week to prepare and now it's time to trust the players.
If I played under Micky Arthur who was telling his bowlers what to bowl from the balcony, then he would of got slung the ball and told to bowl it himself.

Fair enough in a U13s game but these are international cricketers, supposedly at the top of their game.

Well if we are at the top of our game God help us!

MDWat · Post by **MDWat** » Sun May 27, 2018 8:23 am

We’ve been largely dreadful since, and it pains me to say it, Root became captain.

Root is a world class batsman. One of the best batters we’ve had for years. Why do we also seem to make our heaviest run scorer our captain? I’d rather have someone batting at 5 or 6, who is maybe just short of being international class, if we don’t have a natural captain in our ranks.

I don’t understand what we’re aiming for. Jimmy hasn’t got that long left. Broad won’t last as long as Jimmy because of his frame. Where’s the next generation? There’s no planning. Bess played well yesterday, and he may well be good enough for test cricket in the long run, but this lad has no experience of County cricket. Where are they plucking him from?

England test cricket is in a mess at the moment. We need to give the captaincy some real though, stick Root back at 4 where he’s best and let him score runs.

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Sun May 27, 2018 8:42 am

MDWat wrote:We’ve been largely dreadful since, and it pains me to say it, Root became captain.

Root is a world class batsman. One of the best batters we’ve had for years. Why do we also seem to make our heaviest run scorer our captain? I’d rather have someone batting at 5 or 6, who is maybe just short of being international class, if we don’t have a natural captain in our ranks.

I don’t understand what we’re aiming for. Jimmy hasn’t got that long left. Broad won’t last as long as Jimmy because of his frame. Where’s the next generation? There’s no planning. Bess played well yesterday, and he may well be good enough for test cricket in the long run, but this lad has no experience of County cricket. Where are they plucking him from?

England test cricket is in a mess at the moment. We need to give the captaincy some real though, stick Root back at 4 where he’s best and let him score runs.

Good shout.

The captaincy has clearly upset Root and it isn't worth it.

I'll probably get slated for this but I would be rash and give Buttler a go at it. He has already captained at one day level and there would be little pressure on him batting at seven and fielding at cover or wherever he wants.

We are in a mess. The batting should sort itself as there is enough class with Cook, Root, Stokes, Bairstow and Buttler etc but in the next couple of years we look to have a major problem with any class opening the bowling or a decent spinner.

MDWat · Post by **MDWat** » Sun May 27, 2018 9:08 am

Depends whether Buttler is a long-term choice in the test side. His fifty yesterday was his 2nd first class fifty in 3 years. If he is, and I think he's just short of being international class at test cricket level (just due to consistency), then he's a reasonable shout.

We're short at 2 and 3 and they're such pivotal positions. Stokes and Buttler are too inconsistent at test level. We're going to be a very poor side in 2-3 years.

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Sun May 27, 2018 9:35 am

Buttler hit five consecutive fifties in the IPL recently and whilst the format of cricket is different he is clearly capable of having a test place. He is the most naturally talented batsman that we probably have. I totally agree with positions 2 & 3 and we have a massive problem. At the moment I'd risk a chance on shifting Bairstow to 3 and Root to 4.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Sun May 27, 2018 10:05 am

Worryingly Bairstow has been clean bowled twice in this test. There is a dearth of batsmen in England particularly openers, Stoneman and Malan are something short, Stokes disappoints and an alternative captain does not exist. Happy days!

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Sun May 27, 2018 10:17 am

CleggHall - I am reading at Mass at 11am this morning and will add an extra bidding prayer for opening batsmen and your depressing post.

When I get back home at 12.15pm we may have lost? Or Jos could be on his way to saving us.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun May 27, 2018 10:18 am

CleggHall wrote:Worryingly Bairstow has been clean bowled twice in this test. There is a dearth of batsmen in England particularly openers, Stoneman and Malan are something short, Stokes disappoints and an alternative captain does not exist. Happy days!

It's not great but we must now plan for the future.
Jennings is in good form and would currently seem the logical replacement for Stoneman.
I would consider giving Livingstone the captaincy, with him batting at 6 & 7 and therefore under no real pressure as a batsman.
The number 3 position would continue to be problematic, but without the responsibility of captaincy Root is probably the best bet.

So - knowing that there won't be agreement - my team:
Cook
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler
Livingstone (Captain)
Moeen
Woakes
Wood or Broad
Jimmy

Hopefully with that depth of batting a few of them might come off.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Sun May 27, 2018 10:45 am

[quote="tybfc"]CleggHall - I am reading at Mass at 11am this morning and will add an extra bidding prayer for opening batsmen and your depressing post.

Crikey ty sorry to depress, I don't believe in prayer but we've tried everything else so good luck!

bedfords · Post by **bedfords** » Sun May 27, 2018 11:44 am

Livingstone is an exciting player and I'd hope he continues to be involved in white ball cricket but I think we need a reality check and start respecting red ball cricket and look at players deserving a chance (I.e. Jennings) rather than a lad averaging 19 in the much derided county championship.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun May 27, 2018 12:28 pm

bedfords wrote:Livingstone is an exciting player and I'd hope he continues to be involved in white ball cricket but I think we need a reality check and start respecting red ball cricket and look at players deserving a chance (I.e. Jennings) rather than a lad averaging 19 in the much derided county championship.

Fine - I agree to an extent. So who would you bring is captain to try to revive the team and revitalise Root?
I think that Livingstone would be a more than useful all-rounder. Batting at 7 with Ali and Woakes below him, he would have little pressure on hims as a batter, he can bowl spin or medium pace, and at 24 he looks a good prospect as a captain.
Seriously, who would you bring in as captain?
No one in the current squad would make any difference I don't think. It would just be a short term fix, putting a sticking plaster over a wound that needs proper treatment.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sun May 27, 2018 12:33 pm

Well that was like watching an under 11's team take on a under 15's outfit, only with less fight and organisation...

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Sun May 27, 2018 12:34 pm

Oh, for a Geoff Boycott and a Ken Barrngton! Root should not be captain, he's too nice, we need a hard nosed leader.

bedfords · Post by **bedfords** » Sun May 27, 2018 1:05 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Fine - I agree to an extent. So who would you bring is captain to try to revive the team and revitalise Root?
I think that Livingstone would be a more than useful all-rounder. Batting at 7 with Ali and Woakes below him, he would have little pressure on hims as a batter, he can bowl spin or medium pace, and at 24 he looks a good prospect as a captain.
Seriously, who would you bring in as captain?
No one in the current squad would make any difference I don't think. It would just be a short term fix, putting a sticking plaster over a wound that needs proper treatment.

I wouldn't change captain mid series and filling out a team with bits and pieces allrounders has been a proven failure in the past. Got to be a test standard in at least one skill. Papering over the cracks with the next Dermot Reeve isn't the way I hope they take the test team.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun May 27, 2018 2:07 pm

When I see an England captain in the field, but on his knees in a fielding position for several balls, I would seriously question the motivation that this gives to any team. I would not allow anyone to do that at any level of cricket and Joe Root really let himself down as far as I am concerned.
There is a lot wrong with this team at the moment but it certainly is not helped by such a display of capitulation by the captain.