Ireland to vote on abortions

[ClaretMoffitt]

It’s your girlfriend, isn’t it?

> implying I could get a girlfriend

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

This is not a situation that can be allowed to exist any longer in a country as developed and forward thinking as modern day Ireland.

And yet Britain has a King and Queen and Princes and Princesses. Hardly developed and forward thinking is it?

[Corky]

My wife just told me that one of those Princesses, Beatrix I think, was wearing a dress valued at £12,000. How did she manage to pay for that?

And you are quite right Claret-On-A-T-Rex time to move on.

I find it weird that unmarried men who believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden think that they know best about womens bodies. And an unfortunately significant number have been found to be paedophiles.

Let's hope the Irish see sense.

[Greenmile]

"Not the norm" is the wrong way of looking at it IMO. If only one child in the UK died of hunger should we celebrate that fact or be sorry for the child who did succumb?

The stats show that around a third of abortions are repeat abortions. Having worked in social services working with drug addicts and prostitutes I would say that for a number of women, having an abortion is not out of the ordinary.

In percentage terms they would not be a high number but these stats suggest tens of thousands of women in the UK are seeking abortions on a regular basis. Tens of thousands is a lot.

Whether you think tens of thousands is a "big number" is your subjective opinion but nobody has posted any "bullshit" about abortions at all. Those are the numbers as UpTheBeehole reported from the Nursing magazine and the Daily Mail which were based on official figures.



It is but the UK has one of the latest dates for allowing abortions in Europe. We don't make a good comparison in that respect.

******

Very glad to see the yes vote won the day but hope that Ireland properly maintains any laws it brings in around abortion.

I think you might have missed post 15.

Also, who’s suggesting we should celebrate abortions? (the starved child in your analogy). That’s like the people who call pro-choicers “pro+abortion”.

[HatfieldClaret]

12 weeks is quite early in comparison to the UK.

As I understand it, most tests to see if an unborn child may have Downs Syndrome are carried out after 12 weeks and a significant number do opt for a termination when a positive result is found.

The same debate but a very different angle on things. Should would be parents accept that their child will have Downs Syndrome, or should they be allowed to terminate, of this is the case?

I personally would have opted for termination but I’m sure many would (and perhaps rightly) disagree. There are some massively difficult and complex considerations to be had amongst the apparently simple Yes or No.

When Mrs H was expecting her tests and scans suggested a high risk of Downs. We decided to carry on regardless and found a nursery that catered for children with needs etc and warned the relatives. In the end it was a false alarm but we only found out it was a false alarm when my daughter was born.

Have you ever met an unhappy person with Downs ?

[bfcjg]

if you judge a society by how it treats its most weak and vulnerable then surely it is shameful that a life can be snuffed out because it is inconvenient ( rape,severe disability, severe health threat to mum excluded) what next as soon as you get dementia and become inconvenient you are also put down ?

[Wexford_Claret]

This referendum is not a yes or no on whether abortion should be allowed for underage rape victims.

It was a yes or no on whether abortions should be allowed, for any reason, up to 12 weeks into pregnancy.

So no, at the end of the day, it does not come down to that narrow hypothetical.

Well, if you voted No, then the horrific situation I described above could continue to happen, so I think that is a perfectly good reason to vote for Repeal.

[Rowls]

who’s suggesting we should celebrate abortions? (the starved child in your analogy).

Nobody. You've imply not understood the point the analogy was making.

[Greenmile]

Nobody. You've imply not understood the point the analogy was making.

Here’s how I read it. Perhaps you might be good enough to explain what I have misunderstood.

Claretandy posted about women having six or more abortions. Lancaster pointed out that such women are not the norm. You then said that Lancaster was looking at it wrong and brought in the analogy of a child dying from hunger in the uk, and asked if we would celebrate that.

Now I read that as the dying child being analogous to women having six or more abortions (neither of which are the norm), with the implication being that some people would celebrate the latter, hence you asking - presumably rhetorically - whether the former should be celebrated.

What I have missed or misunderstood? I’m genuinely interested.

[Rowls]

Good grief.

The sentence which explains the metaphor is directly in front of it!!!

[Rowls]

So sorry Greenmile I do not have the time or the energy to work on your general comprehension.

[Greenmile]

So sorry Greenmile I do not have the time or the energy to work on your general comprehension.

Have you ever considered it might be your lack of clarity / intelligibility rather than others’ comprehension that might be the problem? If you have the time to tell me you don’t have time to explain your comments, the surely you have the time to explain your comments.

[Greenmile]

Good grief.

The sentence which explains the metaphor is directly in front of it!!!

This sentence?

“"Not the norm" is the wrong way of looking at it IMO.”

I’m none the wiser, I’m afraid.

[LongsideFacingUp]

Well, if you voted No, then the horrific situation I described above could continue to happen, so I think that is a perfectly good reason to vote for Repeal.

No, that's wrong.

The law allowed for abortions if the mothers life is threatened, which included suicide risks for incidents similar to your scenario.

It was also made clear that citizens are free to pursue abortions in the UK or elsewhere if the so choose.

That's about £35 on the ferry and you can happily snuff out a life up to 24 weeks into pregnancy. Ghoulish.

[Wexford_Claret]

‘Happily’ is a shocking choice of words. I don’t think any woman would ‘happily’ terminate a pregnancy, it is an awful situation to be in.

However, you’ve clearly demonstrated you have no sympathy for women when it comes to abortion so I don’t expect you to understand that.

[Rowls]

‘Happily’ is a shocking choice of words. I don’t think any woman would ‘happily’ terminate a pregnancy, it is an awful situation to be in.

Quite clearly there are a lot of women who find having an abortion to be a less problematic than the vast majority of us realise.

We also don't fully take into account our Christian heritage in this debate either.

The abortion rate in Japan is far higher and yet it appears not to concern them nor is it much of an issue, as far as I am aware.

[LongsideFacingUp]

@Wexford
I was just pointing out what I think are flaws in your thinking.

I'll assume that resorting to fake outrage and questioning my ability to sympathise means you have no actual argument against what I've said.

Sad.

[Imploding Turtle]

No, that's wrong.

The law allowed for abortions if the mothers life is threatened, which included suicide risks for incidents similar to your scenario.

It was also made clear that citizens are free to pursue abortions in the UK or elsewhere if the so choose.

That's about £35 on the ferry and you can happily snuff out a life up to 24 weeks into pregnancy. Ghoulish.

So your argument is that abortion is already available and accessible if you have enough money, therefore Ireland should keep it illegal. That's like saying the only reason the UK should keep certain things illegal is because you can go do them elsewhere. So your problem isn't that people do it, your problem is that... well, what exactly is your problem? I can't figure it out because you're making such a poor argument.

[Imploding Turtle]

Quite clearly there are a lot of women who find having an abortion to be a less problematic than the vast majority of us realise.

We also don't fully take into account our Christian heritage in this debate either.

The abortion rate in Japan is far higher and yet it appears not to concern them nor is it much of an issue, as far as I am aware.

Why the hell should religion play any part in the writing of laws?

[Wexford_Claret]

I was just pointing out what I think are flaws in your thinking.

I'll assume that resorting to fake outrage and questioning my ability to sympathise means you have no actual argument against what I've said.

Sad.

1. I was just pointing out one of the flaws in your argument.

2. The outrage was not ‘fake’, I thought your wording was ignorant and offensive (though no doubt you’ll just label be a ‘snowflake’ and that’ll be the end of the debate).

3. I do have an argument against what you said, your philosophy of ‘it’s okay, you can just pay to travel to another country and get an abortion there’ is ridiculous and shallow. The reason I didn’t put this to you in the first place is because you seem like the kind of person who will not change their viewpoint no matter what I say.

4. The only part of your post I agree with is ‘sad’. It is sad that I’ve taken time out of my Saturday to discuss abortion with somebody who I’m never going to meet and will quickly forget about. This applies to you too so maybe you’ll let me get on with celebrating Repeal with my family and I’ll let you get on with whatever fun you’ve no doubt got planned.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Why the hell should religion play any part in the writing of laws?

Dunno, but that was the case for many hundreds of years.

Japan isn't a Christian country, the UK is and of course Ireland is Catholic so the laws of both those countries have been influenced by religion over the years.

[LongsideFacingUp]

The law allowed for abortions if the mothers life is threatened, which included suicide risks for incidents similar to your scenario.

For the benefit of those who missed this the first time.

[Imploding Turtle]

For the benefit of those who missed this the first time.

But in cases of rape or incest they didn't. So clearly the law needed to change. At least i'm assuming that it's clear to you why forcing rape victims to carry their rapist's baby is immoral.

[LongsideFacingUp]

But in cases of rape or incest they didn't. So clearly the law needed to change. At least i'm assuming that it's clear to you why forcing rape victims to carry their rapist's baby is immoral.

Yes. They. Do. Moron.

They can make the legitimate claim that the situation makes them suicidal and get an abortion in Ireland.

Or pay £35 (oh my god, such an unobtainable amount of money, WHAT ABOUT THE POOOOOOOOR?) to get an abortion in the UK.

This has been the case since 1992.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12222235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ClaretAndJew]

Yes. They. Do. Moron.

They can make the legitimate claim that the situation makes them suicidal and get an abortion in Ireland.

Or pay £35 (oh my god, such an unobtainable amount of money, WHAT ABOUT THE POOOOOOOOR?) to get an abortion in the UK.

This has been the case since 1992.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12222235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It says they reversed the decision to allow them to travel overseas for an abortion. It doesn’t say they allowed them to have them in Ireland.

[Imploding Turtle]

Yes. They. Do. Moron.

They can make the legitimate claim that the situation makes them suicidal and get an abortion in Ireland.

Or pay £35 (oh my god, such an unobtainable amount of money, WHAT ABOUT THE POOOOOOOOR?) to get an abortion in the UK.

This has been the case since 1992.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12222235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So you don't give a **** about rape victims being forced to birth a child, you only care about suicidal people.

Edit: It's good that you care about the suicidal. It's just a shame that your empathy doesn't extend to rape victims.

[LongsideFacingUp]

It says they reversed the decision to allow them to travel overseas for an abortion. It doesn’t say they allowed them to have them in Ireland.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney_General_v._X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[LongsideFacingUp]

So you don't give a **** about rape victims being forced to birth a child, you only care about suicidal people.

Edit: It's good that you care about the suicidal. It's just a shame that your empathy doesn't extend to rape victims.

Pathetic.

[Rowls]

Why the hell should religion play any part in the writing of laws?

Using the phrase 'why the hell' to counter a simple comment that we have a Christian cultural heritage?

Nice one.

[dsr]

So you don't give a **** about rape victims being forced to birth a child, you only care about suicidal people.

Edit: It's good that you care about the suicidal. It's just a shame that your empathy doesn't extend to rape victims.

Just as you don't care about a child being forced to die? I thought you didn't even believe that these unborn clumps of cells were human at all?

Be that as it may, if there are two unpleasant options and it is unavoidable that one of them has to be chosen, that does not mean that you don't give a [insert swear word here to show how important you are] about the bad effects of the other option.

[Imploding Turtle]

Just as you don't care about a child being forced to die?

It's not a child. If it was a child i'd care.

I thought you didn't even believe that these unborn clumps of cells were human at all?

Be that as it may, if there are two unpleasant options and it is unavoidable that one of them has to be chosen, that does not mean that you don't give a [insert swear word here to show how important you are] about the bad effects of the other option.

It's not a child. But it becomes one, later in the pregnancy.

If you want to claim it's a human being from conception then lets entertain that for a moment. If your life was dependent on me for something, i'd have no legal obligation to keep you alive by providing for that dependency. Do you agree? So, regarding a pregnancy, if we're talking about two people here then one of them has no right to force the other to keep them alive. So lets remove the "person" from inside the other person and watch them flourish. eh? Lets see how that goes.

I personally believe in reasonable restrictions on abortions. I don't agree with the argument of some that a fetus should be allowed to be aborted all the way up until it is viable. And i certainly don't agree that human life begins at conception. But when the Christian right start making their dumb arguments that it does, based on no scientific evidence, i'm forced to argue, logically, with an argument that basically justifies late-term abortions for any reason. And I don't want to be making that argument. But that's what happens when you argue your beliefs and i argue logic.

[Walton]

I've seen a lot of anti-abortion stuff around from people who previously claimed to be 'libertarian'.

Makes me wonder if they're truly libertarian, or just selfish people who claim to be but really just use it as cover to be a selfish knob.

[Imploding Turtle]

I've seen a lot of anti-abortion stuff around from people who previously claimed to be 'libertarian'.

Makes me wonder if they're truly libertarian, or just selfish people who claim to be but really just use it as cover to be a selfish knob.

A lot of people who call themselves libertarians aren't all that libertarian, likewise liberals. 'Patriot' is another label people like to call themselves too but they still hate so much about the country and its people.

[LongsideFacingUp]

I've seen a lot of anti-abortion stuff around from people who previously claimed to be 'libertarian'.

Makes me wonder if they're truly libertarian, or just selfish people who claim to be but really just use it as cover to be a selfish knob.

The libertarian anti-abortion stance hinges on the fundamental human right to life.

Some don't view an unborn child as a life and say the mother has the right to terminate.

Some say life starts from conception and the child's right to life supersedes the mothers right to terminate.

Most land somewhere in the middle based on term time.

Doesn't mean it's not a libertarian position dumb-dumb.

[dsr]

It's not a child. If it was a child i'd care.




It's not a child. But it becomes one, later in the pregnancy.

If you want to claim it's a human being from conception then lets entertain that for a moment. If your life was dependent on me for something, i'd have no legal obligation to keep you alive by providing for that dependency. Do you agree? So, regarding a pregnancy, if we're talking about two people here then one of them has no right to force the other to keep them alive. So lets remove the "person" from inside the other person and watch them flourish. eh? Lets see how that goes.

I personally believe in reasonable restrictions on abortions. I don't agree with the argument of some that a fetus should be allowed to be aborted all the way up until it is viable. And i certainly don't agree that human life begins at conception. But when the Christian right start making their dumb arguments that it does, based on no scientific evidence, i'm forced to argue, logically, with an argument that basically justifies late-term abortions for any reason. And I don't want to be making that argument. But that's what happens when you argue your beliefs and i argue logic.

Scientifically, then - how far into pregnancy does the thing inside the womb become human, and when does it become a being?

[Imploding Turtle]

Scientifically, then - how far into pregnancy does the thing inside the womb become human, and when does it become a being?

I don't know.

[Maja]

That's why men choose sex with escort girls in Napoli. During sex there is no risk of unintelligible pregnancy.

[dsr]

I don't know.

That's not a good basis for arguing against lack of scientific evidence.

[Imploding Turtle]

That's not a good basis for arguing against lack of scientific evidence.

It's not a basis at all. I can however say with confidence that science doesn't say that personhood begins at conception, just like i can say that science doesn't say that personhood begins at birth.

[Dazzler]

Mother Teresa will be 'turning in her grave'.

She wasn't exactly the best person to ask for advice on family planning though...

[Bfcboyo]

If each individual case for abortion could be reviewed and logically applied it would be the perfect scenario. Unfortunately the laws and resources make things black and white.