Has Dyche Burned Out

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:46 am

Just a question to throw open to all you fellow Clarets, and before anyone asks I don't have the answer.
How many people think that Sean Dyche has done as much as he can for us? I ask only because, despite a great result on Saturday (although we were actually outplayed for much of the game) we have done very little right over the last 9 months or so. Dyche has suddenly gone from playing a settled side (succesfully) to chopping and changing as though he has a squad like Chelsea or City and it simply isn't working. His (apparent) lack of interest in cups is appalling (his record certainly is) and at the moment he seems clueless as to how to change things.
Obviously now that Defour appears to be back (and hopefully Brady soon) and the obviously hated cup games are out of the way things may improve, but with me the jury at the moment is very definitely out. The questions I believe need answering are:
Has he gone 'stale' and does he need a new challenge?
Are there suddenly some 'bad apples' in the squad (Mee?) causing problems?
Can he even manage the squad rotation idea at all (I believe not)?
Why does he continually throw away cup competitions, which represent our only realistic chance of actually winning anything?
Add to that the fact that I personally am getting a little sick of his platitudes (fine margins, work ethic, etc.) and it adds up to a very serious doubt as to whether he actually can turn it around. I want so much for him to get us back on track but at the moment I am beginning to doubt his ability to do so.

As I said I have no answers, just a couple of opinions, and I'm not in any way calling for his head on a block, far from it, but something is amiss and I would like to hear what others are thinking right now.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:53 am

Well, we are never going to better our 7th place last season without major investment, so what would be the point of changing?

The idea the we can establish ourselves in the Prem is pie in the sky. You simply have to look at West Brom and Stoke for that answer.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:54 am

No he hasn't burnt out.
My thoughts are you cannot preach 'maximum effort is the minimum requirement' and then serve up dross like last night. Honesty is best and then fans can choose whether to waste their money. Just tell them it's not important but not getting injured is and then we can forgive hearted effort, shirking tackles and slow pace.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:54 am

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:58 am

No. He’s doing his best for the club by prioritising the PL.
Baby steps. Slow growth is better than a burned out shooting star.
He has performed a miracle with the standard of player he has at his disposal.
Apart from the keepers how many of the rest would PL clubs be calling up for?

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:06 am

I think 5 years is a very long time in football. He has been the greatest manager in my lifetime and has enabled us as a club to be secure for many years to come. Hopefully able to attract good young players and become a little self sufficient.

The problem is during that time the football in general has been pretty gash. The football in the Championship was good and we played some fantastic football whilst keeping strong at the back with the goal of promotion always in the players minds. The football in the Prem is workmanlike and devoid of ideas many times. Yes we have had fantastic results but still usjally they have been back to the wall performances.

Now that we are losing and playing the same boring football fans are going to turn on Dyche. I know Bournemouth was a fantastic performance but it is not the norm. People say its the plastics but my dad is 66 and has been watching Burnley for 56 of them years. He praises Dyche but doesnt enjoy watching the football served up anymore and now is not bothered about missing a game here and there now as it is so uninspiring. Didnt miss Bournemouth though which was a lucky call from him

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:06 am

We should have a reasonably settled side from now until FA Cup day in January, barring injuries, with a few more and better options for certain positions.
Dyche isn't burnt out, he's realistic. Some folks think you should play your strongest side and go for everything, Dyche believes in prudence, moderation, and looks at the long term. He knows that after our ridiculously unsettled start to the season, we need to calm down and get stuck into the PL.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:08 am

Oh dear, please delete thread

All well and good this depressing rubbish, so we get shut of Dyche which will cost a pretty packet, what next.........David Moyes? Or because we finished 7th we could attract Jose when he gets canned at Man U?

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:18 am

Six games on from our highest finish in 44 years, in a world where only the biggest and richest clubs survive long term, and we're questioning if the manager who brought us all this has burned out?

You've gotta love this place.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:19 am

Are you suggesting that we wouldn't have had any bad results in the cups earlier in Dyche's career?

Down_Rover · Post by **Down_Rover** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:20 am

He is simply getting to grips with a new challenge.

We over performed last season and goal setting is very difficult after that. When we were chasing promotion the goal was clear. Trying to stay in the prem and chasing Europe the goals were clear.

Now it is less so, so the group needs refocussing. Lets face it with our resources staying in the prem remains a great achievement. But, to many of the group, will be a tame target compared to last season and the mental drive may be lacking.

A real challenge for the manager but I cant think of a better candidate

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:23 am

Why is the OP suggesting that Mee is a bad apple?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:25 am

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:25 am

I think Dyche is a brilliant tactician and can create a well drilled team who know their jobs. He knows what sort of football he can get from the players at his disposal and will continue to play that football until the personnel on the pitch changes.

The downside for me of Dyche is that he isn’t as good a motivator as other managers - he comes across as someone who runs a tight ship which is brilliant and keeps idiots away from our club but seems like the sort of manager you wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of. After last years amazing run and finish it’ll be even harder to motivate the team now as that will probably be the best that we can expect from this group of players - especially with Dyche pushing them on.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:31 am

The OP probably sounds like a WBA fan under Pulis. Be careful what you wish for................Pardew could be available however the standard of the TM changing rooms aren't good enough for him.

We won 4-0 yet were outplayed. What do you expect a team in 5th place in the PL to do at 2-0 down? Roll over?

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:34 am

I fear we are going to be exposed to this level of bellendery every time we lose a game from now on

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:36 am

houseboy wrote:Just a question to throw open to all you fellow Clarets, and before anyone asks I don't have the answer.
How many people think that Sean Dyche has done as much as he can for us? I ask only because, despite a great result on Saturday (although we were actually outplayed for much of the game) we have done very little right over the last 9 months or so. Dyche has suddenly gone from playing a settled side (succesfully) to chopping and changing as though he has a squad like Chelsea or City and it simply isn't working. His (apparent) lack of interest in cups is appalling (his record certainly is) and at the moment he seems clueless as to how to change things.
Obviously now that Defour appears to be back (and hopefully Brady soon) and the obviously hated cup games are out of the way things may improve, but with me the jury at the moment is very definitely out. The questions I believe need answering are:
Has he gone 'stale' and does he need a new challenge?
Are there suddenly some 'bad apples' in the squad (Mee?) causing problems?
Can he even manage the squad rotation idea at all (I believe not)?
Why does he continually throw away cup competitions, which represent our only realistic chance of actually winning anything?
Add to that the fact that I personally am getting a little sick of his platitudes (fine margins, work ethic, etc.) and it adds up to a very serious doubt as to whether he actually can turn it around. I want so much for him to get us back on track but at the moment I am beginning to doubt his ability to do so.

As I said I have no answers, just a couple of opinions, and I'm not in any way calling for his head on a block, far from it, but something is amiss and I would like to hear what others are thinking right now.

Absolutely no chance that SD has done all he can for us. Fortunately, he understands the slow build process required to be long time successful. It probably has worked against him by having such an unbelievable season last season due to (unrealistically) raising expectations. We are still new, as SD is, to the PL. Throwing in Europe (another whole new experience) too, coupled with injuries to key, attacking players, has made the start to this season difficult. Maybe he should have stuck with a settled team for all games so far but only SD and the physio's etc can truly assess whether that is the correct thing to do. SD will have learnt a lot already this season and it may change his thoughts if the same scenario happens in the future, who knows?

To answer a couple more of your questions:

Has he gone stale - I don't think so. He is far too focused and professional to let that happen.
Bad apples - I very much doubt that. Taking Mee, for example, the guy is just struggling with a little bit of form, as are a few players - it doesn't mean he's unhappy or causing problems
Squad rotation - maybe SD has struggled to balance the rotation but his success has been based on settled teams so it is new to him.
Throw away cup games - I don't believe he does - the team he put out, for example, last night should have been enough to beat Burton. I am also not blind to the fact we haven't done well in cup games and would love a cup run but still don't believe games are "thrown"
Can he turn it around - course he can - no doubt in my mind at all. He is a fantastic manager who will get even better with us

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:43 am

piston broke wrote:No. He’s doing his best for the club by prioritising the PL.
Baby steps. Slow growth is better than a burned out shooting star.
He has performed a miracle with the standard of player he has at his disposal.
Apart from the keepers how many of the rest would PL clubs be calling up for?

Prioritising the PL is the problem - we are never going to win it so why don't we try harder in those competitions where we at least have a chance? The PL is not the start and end of football and as a club we should be striving to win things where possible, not just surving in a competition that pays a lot of money - we're a football club not a bank.
And I would say that Defour, JBG, Tarks, Mee and Brady would make most teams in the PL.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:47 am

Goodclaret wrote:Absolutely no chance that SD has done all he can for us. Fortunately, he understands the slow build process required to be long time successful. It probably has worked against him by having such an unbelievable season last season due to (unrealistically) raising expectations. We are still new, as SD is, to the PL. Throwing in Europe (another whole new experience) too, coupled with injuries to key, attacking players, has made the start to this season difficult. Maybe he should have stuck with a settled team for all games so far but only SD and the physio's etc can truly assess whether that is the correct thing to do. SD will have learnt a lot already this season and it may change his thoughts if the same scenario happens in the future, who knows?

To answer a couple more of your questions:

Has he gone stale - I don't think so. He is far too focused and professional to let that happen.
Bad apples - I very much doubt that. Taking Mee, for example, the guy is just struggling with a little bit of form, as are a few players - it doesn't mean he's unhappy or causing problems
Squad rotation - maybe SD has struggled to balance the rotation but his success has been based on settled teams so it is new to him.
Throw away cup games - I don't believe he does - the team he put out, for example, last night should have been enough to beat Burton. I am also not blind to the fact we haven't done well in cup games and would love a cup run but still don't believe games are "thrown"
Can he turn it around - course he can - no doubt in my mind at all. He is a fantastic manager who will get even better with us

Good points and well put. Just a thought though, it's not just a bad start to the season it's has been going on since Christmas. I don't see, at the moment, what he is 'building' as just now we seem to be going backwards.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:49 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:We should have a reasonably settled side from now until FA Cup day in January, barring injuries, with a few more and better options for certain positions.
Dyche isn't burnt out, he's realistic. Some folks think you should play your strongest side and go for everything, Dyche believes in prudence, moderation, and looks at the long term. He knows that after our ridiculously unsettled start to the season, we need to calm down and get stuck into the PL.

Unfortunately I am one of those people who believes strongest possible team for every competitive game, friendlies are for 'resting' players.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:49 am

houseboy wrote:Prioritising the PL is the problem - we are never going to win it so why don't we try harder in those competitions where we at least have a chance? The PL is not the start and end of football and as a club we should be striving to win things where possible, not just surving in a competition that pays a lot of money - we're a football club not a bank.
And I would say that Defour, JBG, Tarks, Mee and Brady would make most teams in the PL.

It's the baby steps you are missing. We need to stay in the PL to attract a better player and to build the finances to support that aim. Over time and once settled we can have a decent crack at the cups. In saying that I don't agree with getting out early at all. We now have two teams and from that 22 we should be able to get past Burton and see wgat the draw throws up.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:52 am

NL Claret wrote:Oh dear, please delete thread

All well and good this depressing rubbish, so we get shut of Dyche which will cost a pretty packet, what next.........David Moyes? Or because we finished 7th we could attract Jose when he gets canned at Man U?

Perhaps you could point to the post that says we should get rid of Dyche? I asked a question that needs asking because no matter how good Dyche has been at the moment he isn't doing a good job but as I said in my OP I am NOT calling for his head, just asking some questions about his current ability.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:55 am

NottsClaret wrote:Six games on from our highest finish in 44 years, in a world where only the biggest and richest clubs survive long term, and we're questioning if the manager who brought us all this has burned out?

You've gotta love this place.

So you are completely, for the sake of your argument, ignoring the entire second half of last season? Well done.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:55 am

We tried to win last night. We just weren't good enough.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:57 am

fidelcastro wrote:Why is the OP suggesting that Mee is a bad apple?

Didn't get the move he pretty obviously wanted in the Summer. Has been pretty dire so far this season. Take a guess.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:01 am

NL Claret wrote:The OP probably sounds like a WBA fan under Pulis. Be careful what you wish for................Pardew could be available however the standard of the TM changing rooms aren't good enough for him.

We won 4-0 yet were outplayed. What do you expect a team in 5th place in the PL to do at 2-0 down? Roll over?

Read the OP again and tell me what I wished for. I asked a question to gain some answers, I at no point called for him to go, in fact I went to great pains to suggest that wasn't the case. My only definitive statement on this is that unlike some on here I don't actually believe he is God.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:01 am

I don't think he's burned out, I just reckon he's only really concerned about the league. I think he wants to be competitive in the cups, but he doesn't want players to be riving their balls off in those games.

Maybe that's why he was happy to start Defour - because he was instructed along with the rest of the players to take it easier.

taio · Post by **taio** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:02 am

No. Him leading us to 7th last season was a brilliant achievement that more than exceeded everyone's expectations. That appears to have given some people a false sense security at the time about the future. Most supporters realised then and now that we will inevitably face some significant challenges and disappointments. That could include relegation this season or the next season or the season after that, but Dyche deserves respect and trust from supporters especially when things get tough - personally I wouldn't want him to be sacked even if he took us down unless there were expectational circumstances. I absolutely get the disappointment at another cup exit though.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:03 am

houseboy wrote:Didn't get the move he pretty obviously wanted in the Summer. Has been pretty dire so far this season. Take a guess.

So he signs a new contract and then doesn't try? Yeah, makes sense. That'll get other Clubs knocking at the door with such an attitude!

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:08 am

dushanbe wrote:I fear we are going to be exposed to this level of bellendery every time we lose a game from now on

So in your world anyone who questions Dyche is some kind of 'bellend'? So I assume if he says it's Monday it's Monday, even if it's Wednesday? If you want to put your head in the sand and pretend all is okay and Uncle Sean will sort it out then that's your choice, I prefer to ask a few hard edged questions. I'm not actually bothered about relegation, life goes on and Burnley FC will still be around for me to watch, but a little more effort (or indeed any effort at all) in cups would be nice. Personally I'd rather be near top of the Championship than scratting around being all grateful near the foot of the PL. Football is entertainment and at the moment we are NOT being entertained.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:09 am

houseboy wrote:So in your world anyone who questions Dyche is some kind of 'bellend'? So I assume if he says it's Monday it's Monday, even if it's Wednesday? If you want to put your head in the sand and pretend all is okay and Uncle Sean will sort it out then that's your choice, I prefer to ask a few hard edged questions. I'm not actually bothered about relegation, life goes on and Burnley FC will still be around for me to watch, but a little more effort (or indeed any effort at all) in cups would be nice. Personally I'd rather be near top of the Championship than scratting around being all grateful in the PL. Football is entertainment and at the moment we are NOT being entertained.

Shhhhhhh - you’ll alert the Orient lot!!!

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:11 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:We tried to win last night. We just weren't good enough.

If that was meant with irony well done. If not you need to have a re-think about what constitutes trying.

expoultryboy · Post by **expoultryboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:12 am

Is Alan Curbishley available ? Grass is greener and all that !

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:13 am

The refusal to question anything Dyche does by certain posters on here is getting ridiculous. Just because He's done an amazing job with us doesn't mean he can't get certain things wrong. I personally think his level is similar to Pulis/Allardyce. They'll scrap out enough points to survive and that's your lot.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:13 am

expoultryboy wrote:Is Alan Curbishley available ? Grass is greener and all that !

Grass is greener cos’ it’s usually covered in bull$hit.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:14 am

houseboy wrote:So you are completely, for the sake of your argument, ignoring the entire second half of last season? Well done.

We went from 7th, half way through the season, all the way down to 7th at the end. Quite a worrying trend.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:15 am

NottsClaret wrote:We went from 7th, half way through the season, all the way down to 7th at the end. Quite a worrying trend.

And how many wins did we have towards the end of the season last season?

You’re blatantly ignoring that

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:17 am

Look at it another way.

Has any other manager in the PL achieved more than Sean Dyche when everything is taken into account?

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:18 am

FactualFrank wrote:I don't think he's burned out, I just reckon he's only really concerned about the league. I think he wants to be competitive in the cups, but he doesn't want players to be riving their balls off in those games.

Maybe that's why he was happy to start Defour - because he was instructed along with the rest of the players to take it easier.

I take your point but I hope you are wrong because if that was the case I would definitely be calling for him to go. If he is doing that then he should say to fans who spend time, money and effort to get to games, especially away, that they are not going to take it too seriously then they could stay away. I happen to have a major problem with ordinary people getting ripped off by rich organisations, which Burnley are at the moment, and if Dyche is actually saying that (and he may not be of course) that he should hang his head in shame and leave. Our team should try it's damndest in EVERY game, they should do it for the fans, the club and for their own professional pride, anything else is just wrong.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:20 am

bfccrazy wrote:And how many wins did we have towards the end of the season last season?

You’re blatantly ignoring that

Why on earth is that funny?

There are actually some posters on here who revel in our defeats.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:29 am

fidelcastro wrote:Why on earth is that funny?

There are actually some posters on here who revel in our defeats.

I never revel in defeats, each time we lose it annoys me - I do though find it funny how someone can just ignore our run of form at the tail end of last season because we finished 7th.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:31 am

bfccrazy wrote:I never revel in defeats, each time we lose it annoys me - I do though find it funny how someone can just ignore our run of form at the tail end of last season because we finished 7th.

And yet the same posters who constantly bring up the end of last season completely ignore how bad we were at the end of the previous season as well!

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:32 am

taio wrote:No. Him leading us to 7th last season was a brilliant achievement that more than exceeded everyone's expectations. That appears to have given some people a false sense security at the time about the future. Most supporters realised then and now that we will inevitably face some significant challenges and disappointments. That could include relegation this season or the next season or the season after that, but Dyche deserves respect and trust from supporters especially when things get tough - personally I wouldn't want him to be sacked even if he took us down unless there were expectational circumstances. I absolutely get the disappointment at another cup exit though.

He certainly does deserve respect yes, for what he has achieved in the league, but he deserves none whatsoever for the way he treats cups and in particualr the Europa.
Also I would ask, no matter how well a manager has done for the club, hypothetically speaking, if he does lose it how long do you give it before saying sorry you're just not cutting it any more? I have worked for many, many years in jobs with performance related pay and good people do lose their edge and sometimes need to leave. I'm not saying that is where we are at yet but exactly when will people look at the man and say 'he needs to buck up, seriously'?
I'm not asking these questions because of the last few weeks or so, I'm asking them because our level of performance this whole calendar year has been generally pretty dire and yet we still field weakened teams in 'winnable' games that could produce a cup run and maybe even a trophy.
Sean Dyche is a good manager and has done wonders and still has some credit in his loyalty bank, including from me, but I just think there is a little too much blind faith in him at times from some people.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:35 am

NottsClaret wrote:We went from 7th, half way through the season, all the way down to 7th at the end. Quite a worrying trend.

It would have been if Everton or Leicester hadn't been so sh!te.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:36 am

bfccrazy wrote:I never revel in defeats, each time we lose it annoys me - I do though find it funny how someone can just ignore our run of form at the tail end of last season because we finished 7th.

So we don't mean the 2nd half of last season now, where we maintained 7th position, winning 5 in a row at one point?

Now it's just the 'tail end of last season'. We lost to a brilliant Chelsea, then drew with Stoke and Brighton, securing 7th spot and Europe. The last 2 games were dead rubbers, one of them away at Arsenal.

Whether we ignore that or focus on it, not sure it's that important. Over the season we were the 7th best team, and Dyche took us there. Six games into this one, we're out of the bottom three and have key players coming back.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:36 am

Spijed wrote:And yet the same posters who constantly bring up the end of last season completely ignore how bad we were at the end of the previous season as well!

Yes - which was rectified over the summer and we went out and beat Chelsea in our opening game.

I doubt people would be saying this run of poor form had gone back to the end of last season ...... if we currently were not having a run of poor form.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:37 am

No

Are we going through a bad patch?

Yes

Are people overreacting?

Yes

Am I pig sick of people overreacting on here?

Yes

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:38 am

NottsClaret wrote:So we don't mean the 2nd half of last season now, where we maintained 7th position, winning 5 in a row at one point?

Now it's just the 'tail end of last season'. We lost to a brilliant Chelsea, then drew with Stoke and Brighton, securing 7th spot and Europe. The last 2 games were dead rubbers, one of them away at Arsenal.

Whether we ignore that or focus on it, not sure it's that important. Over the season we were the 7th best team, and Dyche took us there. Six games into this one, we're out of the bottom three and have key players coming back.

And out of Europa and the League Cup .... progression?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:38 am

houseboy wrote:It would have been if Everton or Leicester hadn't been so sh!te.

And why were Everton & Leicester rubbish? Because like virtually every other club in the Prem they sack their managers every season or so.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:41 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:No

Are we going through a bad patch?

Yes

Are people overreacting?

Yes

Am I pig sick of people overreacting on here?

Yes

So it's safe to say that you don't like people asking questions for the sake of discussion? So tell me, why are you even on here?