The Decline of Burnley (the town not the FC)

[Sproggy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45952532" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gloomy reading from the BBC. 45% decline in jobs between 1911 and 2016.

[Royboyclaret]

50,000 fewer jobs in Burnley than 100 years ago.......that's some statistic.

Goes a long way to explaining the dramatic drop in population in the town over the same period.

[Quickenthetempo]

If you logged onto any job sites I reckon there would be over a thousand jobs available in Burnley that they haven't managed to fill so it's a bit misleading.

As we were textile led around half of the jobs could of been given to 11-16yr olds that you simply couldn't do now.

In fact it's just a worthless article.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Our government weren't able to stop the flow out of the UK of various industries, or they weren't interested, you can choose which one based on your political leanings.
This was helped by unions over the years with their constant desire for strikes, strikes and more strikes.

Couple those with the public desire to have cheaper products and there goes a lot of our manufacturing industries.

[deanothedino]

As we were textile led around half of the jobs could of been given to 11-16yr olds that you simply couldn't do now...

Once Brexit is done we can do what we want. Bring back child labour I say!

[Sproggy]

Yet Doncaster lost its mining industry but has now has double the number of jobs over the same period. Why did the NW textile towns fail to adapt?

[Sproggy]

As we were textile led around half of the jobs could of been given to 11-16yr olds that you simply couldn't do now.

You couldn't give them to anybody - the jobs don't exist any more.

[Quickenthetempo]

You couldn't give them to anybody - the jobs don't exist any more.

I know.

[NottsClaret]

Yet Doncaster lost its mining industry but has now has double the number of jobs over the same period. Why did the NW textile towns fail to adapt?

They are £100 below the national average weekly wage though. Large swathes of South Yorks have never recovered from the mining and steel industries being killed off. However Donny and Wakefield are on a fast, direct train route to London. There's no doubt a lot more to it than that, but it probably helps.

If you visit either town, you're unlikely to think you've reached an oasis of wealth and prosperity.

[tybfc]

They are £100 below the national average weekly wage though. Large swathes of South Yorks have never recovered from the mining and steel industries being killed off. However Donny and Wakefield are on a fast, direct train route to London. There's no doubt a lot more to it than that, but it probably helps.

If you visit either town, you're unlikely to think you've reached an oasis of wealth and prosperity.

Try visiting Accrington and you would think any of the above mentioned would be akin to Dubai.

[Pstotto]

it says 25% of jobs will be lost to automation and A.I. With respect to that, there is obviously no need for immigration but a vast need for repatriation, now that migrants who came here to work are no longer needed. Perhaps a good idea would be to revise all immigration conditions to short-term working contract like for example, work in the Middle East etc. so that whoever came here after WW2 would have their citizenship rescinded according to a retrospective overview of working papers. Otherwise the country will be vastly over-populated and with it, all the dire social issues and infrastructure connected.

With respect to the 'knowledge industries' of the article, service industries are something of a short-term premise, as one needs real things to eat and to live in and to get wherever and do whatever.

[bobinho]

50,000 fewer jobs in Burnley than 100 years ago.......that's some statistic.

Goes a long way to explaining the dramatic drop in population in the town over the same period.

Someone will be along shortly to blame brexit...

[claret2018]

"there is obviously no need for immigration but a vast need for repatriation"

Good idea. Where would you like to go?

[Pstotto]

Think local, buy local, build local, make local. Brexit shall be the next chapter of civilization for an anti-global remit.

[ClaretAndJew]

Buying local will cost us all in the end unless the minimum wage goes up small towns like Burnley will be dead.

[Falcon]

it says 25% of jobs will be lost to automation and A.I. With respect to that, there is obviously no need for immigration but a vast need for repatriation, now that migrants who came here to work are no longer needed. Perhaps a good idea would be to revise all immigration conditions to short-term working contract like for example, work in the Middle East etc. so that whoever came here after WW2 would have their citizenship rescinded according to a retrospective overview of working papers. Otherwise the country will be vastly over-populated and with it, all the dire social issues and infrastructure connected.

With respect to the 'knowledge industries' of the article, service industries are something of a short-term premise, as one needs real things to eat and to live in and to get wherever and do whatever.

In theory with the rise of automation none of us will need jobs as all the donkey work in keeping us fed and watered can all be done by robots. We won't need countries any longer and anybody in the world could all just live wherever we want. Of course in reality the robots will rise up and destroy us all.

[Pstotto]

Rubbish. Our ancestors built this country over a thousand years. No Canterbury Cathedral in Malawi. If folk have that attitude then you go an live in Malawi to kick-start your theory.

[LoveCurryPies]

Supermarkets are trying to automate everything. I hate the automated checkouts. The cashier does more than take money. What price a friendly smile or some assistance packing you purchases? No doubt in time the warehouses will be fully automated and shelves refilled.

The banks are the same. These huge companies don’t want to pay staff.

Serious question is what do people drink all day when there are no jobs? Everyday we see what some people do when they get bored.

[TheFamilyCat]

They are £100 below the national average weekly wage though. Large swathes of South Yorks have never recovered from the mining and steel industries being killed off. However Donny and Wakefield are on a fast, direct train route to London. There's no doubt a lot more to it than that, but it probably helps.

If you visit either town, you're unlikely to think you've reached an oasis of wealth and prosperity.

Doncaster has also got the airport and good motorway connections and have had investment on a new road connecting these. A massive new Amazon warehouse opened there recently and there are other large distribution centres in the area. As you say, the centre itself hardly screams prosperity as a high proportion of jobs in the industry it attracts are low paid (plus zero hours etc).

[nil_desperandum]

Burnley's population has been in steady decline since 1911, so that's 107 years not just the past few decades.
There are many reasons for this, but it's certainly worth noting, particularly as we mark the centenary of the Armistice that Burnley never recovered from WW1.
Not only did Burnley lose more men than most similar towns, (over 15% of working men), but it also lost its industry and markets to emerging markets abroad.
Burnley's relative wealth and prosperity up until 1914 was built on textiles, coal-mining and foundries. It's not just Burnley where the textile industry, foundries and mines have disappeared, but we are now doing well in the field of technology.
The population grew dramatically from about 1800 when it was only a few thousand, to over 140,000 in 1911. Most of this of course was caused by "immigration", mainly from Ireland and Scotland but also from agricultural regions of England. People came to the Lancashire industrial towns because of the "benefits" that the industrial revolution brought. (Long working hours, poor wages, poor cramped housing / sanitation, but better than starving in the fields)
The decline in population in the past 100 years has been steady, and consistent, dropping by an average of just over 5,000 every decade, (with occasional blips), so you can't blame it on any one event or cause since 1918.

[Chester Perry]

Supermarkets are trying to automate everything. I hate the automated checkouts. The cashier does more than take money. What price a friendly smile or some assistance packing you purchases? No doubt in time the warehouses will be fully automated and shelves refilled.

The banks are the same. These huge companies don’t want to pay staff.

Serious question is what do people drink all day when there are no jobs? Everyday we see what some people do when they get bored.

simple solution is do not use the automated facilities - I am forever telling supervisors/managers asking me to use automated facilities that I would rather keep people in a job by queuing an extra minute

[Hipper]

Supermarkets are trying to automate everything. I hate the automated checkouts. The cashier does more than take money. What price a friendly smile or some assistance packing you purchases? No doubt in time the warehouses will be fully automated and shelves refilled.

The banks are the same. These huge companies don’t want to pay staff.

Serious question is what do people drink all day when there are no jobs? Everyday we see what some people do when they get bored.

'What price a friendly smile or some assistance packing you purchases?'

That's exactly the right question. Would you pay more for this service. Supermarkets don't think you will.

[claret2018]

'What price a friendly smile or some assistance packing you purchases?'

Precisely £zero for me

[SammyBoy]

Supermarkets are trying to automate everything. I hate the automated checkouts. The cashier does more than take money. What price a friendly smile or some assistance packing you purchases? No doubt in time the warehouses will be fully automated and shelves refilled.

The banks are the same. These huge companies don’t want to pay staff.

Serious question is what do people drink all day when there are no jobs? Everyday we see what some people do when they get bored.

I'm a big fan of the self service checkouts. I tend to do several smaller shops throughout the week and there's never a queue. Plus I'm not a big one for small talk, sounds a little anti-social but it works well for me. I agree though with the sentiment behind the question of what will people do without jobs. I get bored after more than a couple of days off and very much need something to keep myself occupied.

[LoveCurryPies]

simple solution is do not use the automated facilities - I am forever telling supervisors/managers asking me to use automated facilities that I would rather keep people in a job by queuing an extra minute

That is exactly what I do.

I’m genuinely concerned about millions of ‘everyday’ jobs that will be lost. These jobs give many people a sense of self worth, pride. We all witnessed the effect on community and the depression many suffered when the pits were finally closed.

The banks are happy to have a hole in the wall for you to access money and many village & small town banks have closed but where do you go for help when you need to talk to them? You used to look your bank manager in the eye when you asked for a little help.

[LoveCurryPies]

Part of the problem might be most of the local young talent tends to go to Uni and doesn’t return. And why should they, the town offers little in culture* and if you do venture out on a Saturday night you’re likely to face some dick who wants to knock your lights out.


*I should have said...when compared to a city

[Dark Cloud]

Don't bloody get me started about automated check outs in Tesco and the like! Has anyone ever actually used one without having to call the "supervisor" over at least once and then have to wait ages until they've finished helping loads of other people first. They're rubbish! AND they also mean the cashier operated tills have been halved and have long queues of people at them!

[claret2018]

Jobs are being automated whether we like it or not. In the next decade or two the job of 'driver' will barely exist, which will be a huge problem if we can't figure out how to shift the people in this industry to another.

There's never been a better time to retrain in computer engineering/AI/tech repair!

[dushanbe]

A few months ago I had some errands to run in town. I went to the bank to pay some cheques in, nipped in the library for a book, filled the car up at Tesco and then went in the store to pick up some bits for tea. When I came back I realised all my transactions had taken place using automated equipment.

[ClaretAndJew]

A few months ago I had some errands to run in town. I went to the bank to pay some cheques in, nipped in the library for a book, filled the car up at Tesco and then went in the store to pick up some bits for tea. When I came back I realised all my transactions had taken place using automated equipment.

Good or bad though?

[dushanbe]

Good or bad though?

Good for me, because I'm quite happy not to interact but it just struck me that this has crept up on us without realising and it does make you think about retail jobs and the like.

[bfcjg]

Burnley won the most enterprising UK town a few years Burnley has a large percentage of highly skilled manufacturing jobs Burnley has a thriving economic base. So upset that there isn't a Latte shop on every corner to employ dreamy young things with sociology and criminology etc degrees let's keep such high quality well paid jobs in London so they can afford to rent shoe boxes.

[Healeywoodclaret]

[quote="LoveCurryPies"]Supermarkets are trying to automate everything. I hate the automated checkouts. The cashier does more than take money. What price a friendly smile or some assistance packing you purchases? No doubt in time the warehouses will be fully automated and shelves refilled.

The banks are the same. These huge companies don’t want to pay staff.

Completely agree I hate automated checkout outs and hells teeth the idea of people applying for a mortgage online. The biggest purchase of your life. You need to sit opposite someone who can explain the small print if needs be especially ffor first time buyers.

[Vintage Claret]

I wasn't born in Burnley but I've lived here since the age of 12 and my wife, son and grandson were all born here (and are all Clarets )

I wouldn't say its declined any worse than any town of similar size or even larger ones in the region but like a lot of places has suffered through social and economic factors like many places.

I'm still proud to say I'm from Burnley, I still think it's a great little town with a proud heritage.

Oh, and we have half decent football team with a historic stadium in the centre of the town rather than a flashy but soul-less concrete bowl in the middle of nowhere.

As much as I enjoy day trips to big city's like Manchester, Newcastle, Liverpool, Leeds, London I wouldn't like to live in any of them and I daresay they have all seen some 'decline' in one way or another.

[dpinsussex]

Burnley won the most enterprising UK town a few years Burnley has a large percentage of highly skilled manufacturing jobs Burnley has a thriving economic base. So upset that there isn't a Latte shop on every corner to employ dreamy young things with sociology and criminology etc degrees let's keep such high quality well paid jobs in London so they can afford to rent shoe boxes.

Manchester managed to adapt.

"Manchester has also made this transition, creating knowledge-based jobs in financial services, law and advertising - driving the resurgence of its vibrant city centre."

Leeds seems to be doing pretty well.

Burnley as a town needs to change. We can't keep dwelling on the past. Time to move forward.

[bfcjg]

Manchester managed to adapt.

"Manchester has also made this transition, creating knowledge-based jobs in financial services, law and advertising - driving the resurgence of its vibrant city centre."

Leeds seems to be doing pretty well.

Burnley as a town needs to change. We can't keep dwelling on the past. Time to move forward.

They are cities though not a town surrounded by hills. The geographical positioning of Leeds and Manchester is so much more beneficial. Burnley grew rapidly due to it being damp so the cotton didn't snap and we have fast flowing rivers to drive mills. The coal was here so population grew to get it out.
It's a miracle Burnley is still here and thriving considering cotton and coal have gone and it's only relatively recently that road and rail connections have improved.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The automation of various jobs was always on the cards.
Factories have been doing it for years now, just took time for technology to improve enough for other sectors to do it.

Personally I don't need to talk to a cashier in Tesco's etc
Scanning as I shop is ideal, I don't enjoy unloading a trolley to reload it as my shopping is being whizzed at me by a usually grumpy or non-talkative cashier.

I don't really need to see anyone know a bank apart from important things like opening an account or mortgage etc.

Governments around the world need to take a serious look at paying people an equivalent to a living wage in the not to distant future.

[dpinsussex]

They are cities though not a town surrounded by hills. The geographical positioning of Leeds and Manchester is so much more beneficial. Burnley grew rapidly due to it being damp so the cotton didn't snap and we have fast flowing rivers to drive mills. The coal was here so population grew to get it out.
It's a miracle Burnley is still here and thriving considering cotton and coal have gone and it's only relatively recently that road and rail connections have improved.

I understand. It doesn't take away the need for Burnley to adapt though.

[bfcjg]

But we have. Aerospace cutting edge engineering modern textiles and other industries.

[nil_desperandum]

I understand. It doesn't take away the need for Burnley to adapt though.

Well yes, but who will invest in the massive infrastructure improvements needed? The government?
Even commuting in and out of Manchester is an absolute nightmare from Burnley. The bus service is quite frequent but takes far too long to make it an efficient mode of transport. getting to Liverpool by public transport is an absolute nightmare. Leeds - not too bad.
Finally we do now have a direct train link with Manchester but it is infrequent, runs into Victoria, (not Piccadilly where the Intercity trains depart from) and has taken years to get it back.
In short our communication network with the rest of the UK and beyond is extremely poor and antiquated.
As an earlier poster mentioned Doncaster is very near to an airport, a rail mainline and 3 motorways.

All things considered Burnley has done really well in the past decade and is doing much better than many similar industrial towns north of the M25.

[LoveCurryPies]

I wouldn’t say Burnley has declined since the 70’s or even 60’s. It was a smokey, smoggy place. The buses full of smoking adults....kids breathing in their fumes. The stone houses are still blackened from the factory and household fires.

The violence was terrible. Huge fights with visiting teams and you’d always see a fight on a night out.

In many ways it’s improved but many people still wear their rose tinted memory glasses.

[dsr]

it says 25% of jobs will be lost to automation and A.I. ...

Not a new idea. This is from Wikipedia:

"The Luddite movement emerged during the harsh economic climate of the Napoleonic Wars, which saw a rise of difficult working conditions in the new textile factories. Luddites objected primarily to the rising popularity of automated textile equipment, threatening the jobs and livelihoods of skilled workers as this technology allowed them to be replaced by cheaper and less skilled workers. The movement began in Arnold, Nottingham on 11 March 1811 and spread rapidly throughout England over the following two years. Handloom weavers burned mills and pieces of factory machinery. Textile workers destroyed industrial equipment during the late 18th century, prompting acts such as the Protection of Stocking Frames, etc. Act 1788.

The Luddites met at night on the moors surrounding industrial towns to practice drills and maneuvers. Their main areas of operation began in Nottinghamshire in November 1811, followed by the West Riding of Yorkshire in early 1812 then Lancashire by March 1813. They smashed stocking frames and cropping frames among others. There does not seem to have been any political motivation behind the Luddite riots and there was no national organization. The men were merely attacking what they saw as the reason for the decline in their livelihoods."

They have been predicting that automation is going to destroy jobs for well over 200 years, and so far it's had no net effect.

[Claretnick]

I understand. It doesn't take away the need for Burnley to adapt though.

You mean like this sort of manufacturing company; a world leader in its field, based just off Rossendale Road and I am sure there are plenty of other hidden gems in the area. Just wish people and the media would stop knocking our town....

https://ams-neve.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dpinsussex]

You mean like this sort of manufacturing company; a world leader in its field, based just off Rossendale Road and I am sure there are plenty of other hidden gems in the area. Just wish people and the media would stop knocking our town....

https://ams-neve.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Absolutely claretnick

[Inchy]

Regarding A.I. And automation, how did the human race f*ck up so badly that robots doing our jobs have become a problem. We should all be on a beach sunning while the robot from Rocky 5 is serving us drinks.

Greed from a few has really screwed us all over

[Garnerssoap]

Manchester train link, premiership football, hot black puddings, cheap proper ale , hafners pies, green hills and fields.
I like the place

[Pstotto]

Hand-loom weavers lost their jobs to 'automation,' but other found work in the mills. 25% of folk are to find work in the what? Better get the Grammar Schools back up and running so that some intelligent folk might invent and design some new things.

[Luisfigo]

I note the article in the OP was written by staff from the Centre for Cities, rather than the BBC. The methodology usually used by the Centre for Cities classes 'Burnley' as the boroughs of Hyndburn, Pendle and Burnley, which can skew the figures somewhat. No doubt the prevailing narrative is accurate, though.