Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Elizabeth]

Please talk English

[Lancasterclaret]

https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXMZO41 ... 9A2SHF000/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its in Japanese, but its essentially as editorial from Nikkei (Japans main business paper) that its ludicrous to suggest that Hondas decision had nothing to do with Brexit.

"It is a problem if the UK government takes Honda's statement that their decision to close Swindon had nothing to do with Brexit at face value...t is difficult for foreign companies to accept that in addition to the threat of a no deal Brexit, the lack of clarity as to the future of the business environment continues in the long term.....Companies like Honda, with long standing connections to the UK, are withdrawing their production. Political leadership is needed to calm the worries common to many companies of what the future will be after Brexit......We would like British politicians to take serious note of the signals that are being sent to them from businesses."

[Elizabeth]

Right on cue Lancaster

[Lancasterclaret]

Well, i can only post what is being said by people who know more about this than you and me.

The problem is that the people we trust to govern us are acting like the Brexiteers on here and pretending its not happening.

[Elizabeth]

Lancaster, the important business of the night is that both Fulham and Cardiff are losing. Now it might not end like that but it's what most Burnley fans are interested in at this moment.
You like controlling issues if your posts are anything to go by.
For a brief moment I will indulge you. You voted to remain in the EU, one vote no more or less important than any other vote.
My one question to you is that I ask you do you want another referendum or not

[Lancasterclaret]

Depends on whether we are planning to crash out on No Deal or not.

And Elizabeth, with the deepest respect, I'm posting on this and the goals thread from tonight.

I'm quite capable of doing both!

[Jakubclaret]

Depends on whether we are planning to crash out on No Deal or not.

And Elizabeth, with the deepest respect, I'm posting on this and the goals thread from tonight.

I'm quite capable of doing both!

I wouldn't worry about cardiff tonight, sometimes you seem reluctant to consider other opposing viewpoints & are steadfastly welded to your own views & sometimes you can miss basic points relevant to the core issue.

[Lancasterclaret]

Physician heal thyself

[Elizabeth]

OK Jakub.

As you say Lancaster, you don't know as much as others.

What is this about No Deal. The current law says that degree of separation will only happen if a deal is not agreed.

Is a deal not what Teresa May is trying to do. You seem to think that there is some kind of planning going on.

Some people want a deal to be agreed then it being put to the public. Where do you stand on that

[Lancasterclaret]

Makes sense to be honest, but I don't see how that gets through parliament.

I basically accept the result of the referendum, but not the result that Ringo and Jakub think it was.

Ie it was a vote to leave the EU, but not things that are beneficial to us as a country.

[Elizabeth]

What makes sense, Teresa May to get a deal or for that deal to be put to a public vote.
Is it not true that you never accepted the referendum result and will argue black is white to try and split the leave vote

[Jakubclaret]

I wouldn't worry about fulham now, things haven't deviated that excessively from what people initially voted for with the reasons, implementing & seeking a satisfactory deal seems to be a problem, i believe the remainers have complicated the whole issue & even helped the EU to stall & be in a position to make things difficult, after the referendum we needed acceptance to a democratic decision.

[Lancasterclaret]

Eh?

Well, it does depend on whether or not you think me saying repeatedly that I accept the result means I accept the result. I can't help you there I'm afraid.

Happy about it? Not a chance!

Especially as the chancers in the ERG will drag us out on a "No Deal" unless politicians get their act together.

[Jakubclaret]

Eh?

Well, it does depend on whether or not you think me saying repeatedly that I accept the result means I accept the result. I can't help you there I'm afraid.

Happy about it? Not a chance!

Especially as the chancers in the ERG will drag us out on a "No Deal" unless politicians get there act together.

You might say you've accepted it, but from the 24th june 2016 a mission to upset & cause disharmony as been the ultimate goal & is still ongoing to prevent brexit happening.

[Elizabeth]

I take it that you want a second referendum in the hope it will split the leave vote but don't have it in yourself to admit it publically. I am going to hazard a guess that if this unlikely scenario happens you will tell us that it's the only fair thing.
I don't understand how a poster who delivers prose as eloquently as Spice can be relegated to words such as 'eh'. But then I remember we can all become a hesitant when put on the spot.

[nil_desperandum]

I take that as you want a second referendum in the hope it will split the leave vote. I don't understand how a poster who delivers prose as eloquently as Spice can be relegated to words such as 'eh'. But then I remember we can all become a hesitant when put on the spot.

Out of interest, why would a referendum split the leave vote? Leavers are free to vote leave again.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not Spice, he knows far more about football than I do.

Jakub - you can pretend all you like, but the reality of the situation on Feb 22 2019 hasn't really changed since June 24 2016. You were promised the impossible and people refusing to accept that its impossible are why people like you have problems dealing with that. I've lost all faith in the two main parties because they are refusing to accept that the national interest comes before unicorn based solutions.

Elizabeth - the leave vote is split already, always has been between all the various scenarios. I've stopped laughing now at posts in which they deny that is an issue and then prove it isn't with the very next post.

Which is why I favour a compromise of some sort, and of those the Boles amendment seems the most sensible.

[Elizabeth]

Think about that again n_d.

The only vote that matters was the straightforward 2016 vote, leave or stay.

Now yes by all means repeat that vote but posters like Lancaster don't want that kind of question

[Jakubclaret]

I'm not Spice, he knows far more about football than I do.

Jakub - you can pretend all you like, but the reality of the situation on Feb 22 2019 hasn't really changed since June 24 2016. You were promised the impossible and people refusing to accept that its impossible are why people like you have problems dealing with that. I've lost all faith in the two main parties because they are refusing to accept that the national interest comes before unicorn based solutions.

Elizabeth - the leave vote is split already, always has been between all the various scenarios. I've stopped laughing now at posts in which they deny that is an issue and then prove it isn't with the very next post.

Which is why I favour a compromise of some sort, and of those the Boles amendment seems the most sensible.

Without even scrutinising the other 2 parties, you are deflecting away from the focus, a GE is probably needed post brexit, promises don't really matter in the harsh world we live in now, if you believe in everything you are promised it will only end up in disappointment. Remaining in the EU impossible to say as we haven't left yet would be no guarantee of the reality changing, so why are we judging brexit before it has been implemented it's premature.

[martin_p]

I don’t know Lancasterclaret, but if I ever see someone at the Turf with the imprint of a brick wall on his forehead, I’m pretty sure it’ll be him.

[Elizabeth]

Now I'm going to show you my cards.

I would worry about the damage a No Deal would do to many hard working people in this country.

I am suspicious about the motives of the Republic of Ireland premier and believe his constant high profile inflammatory statements are harming the chances of an acceptable deal. I hope he will be put in his place soon by the other EU states. The Good Friday agreement is not threatened and I think most people who don't want the UK to leave are using this as an argument in a way that can be seen through.

I understand why the EU negotiators are worried that if they don't play tough with the UK other countries will be encouraged to leave this cancerous self serving institution.

I am dismayed about the behaviour of the remainer MPs and while I'm not on the same wavelength as the ERG I can understand why they are putting pressure on May so we don't end up with a Brexit in name only.

My one motivation to shout down posters like Lancaster is that I strongly believe that the 17 million individuals who voted to leave the EU should not be let down. I believe everyone of those voters knew what they were voting for and for the likes of Lancaster to argue differently is insulting

[Jakubclaret]

I don’t know Lancasterclaret, but if I ever see someone at the Turf with the imprint of a brick wall on his forehead, I’m pretty sure it’ll be him.

Without the time travelling machine permitting, you’d be looking at wolves on the 30th Martin, 24hrs should be ample for some sort of indentation to occur.

[Devils_Advocate]

Now I'm going to show you my cards.

I would worry about the damage a No Deal would do to many hard working people in this country.

I am suspicious about the motives of the Republic of Ireland premier and believe his constant high profile inflammatory statements are harming the chances of an acceptable deal. I hope he will be put in his place soon by the other EU states. The Good Friday agreement is not threatened and I think most people who don't want the UK to leave are using this as an argument in a way that can be seen through.

I understand why the EU negotiators are worried that if they don't play tough with the UK other countries will be encouraged to leave this cancerous self serving institution.

I am dismayed about the behaviour of the remainer MPs and while I'm not on the same wavelength as the ERG I can understand why they are putting pressure on May so we don't end up with a Brexit in name only.

My one motivation to shout down posters like Lancaster is that I strongly believe that the 17 million individuals who voted to leave the EU should not be let down. I believe everyone of those voters knew what they were voting for and for the likes of Lancaster to argue differently is insulting

Dont ever take up Poker

[Lancasterclaret]

You haven't shown me your cards Elizabeth, you've shown me what you want to believe. I can show you on here all the posts from me and others (with evidence) that debunk all those. We've been doing it for two years plus. There is nothing new there.

What I need to see to mollify me is some hint from those in charge that they realise that you can't magic away these problems. TM tried with her deal, which is absolutely terrible but it has one shining light in it. It is an attempt to square the referendum result with some reality on what we can do.

Means everyone hates it, and its not a good deal, but it is the basis that gets us through the leaving hurdle. No more than that.

And its dead. Because the ERG want a "No Deal" and think they can get it. All they have to do is stop anything else.

Now you lot are fond of going on about democratic mandates and will, so care to explain to me how 70-80 MPs out of 600 can dictate what the UK does?

[Elizabeth]

And of course, you never show your cards, do you?

[Lancasterclaret]

I dunno

One thing i'm pretty good at on here is telling everyone where I'm at.

And I tend to back it up as well with an explanation why I'm there.

Like I've just done in fact.

[Elizabeth]

Sorry Lancaster, you are so much up yourself that you don't realise you talk in riddles

[Lancasterclaret]

Too complicated ?

No bother

Its a tremendously complicated subject that isn't solved by lots of people going "Brexit means Brexit" The problems and issues are real and are not going to go away.

Sorry

[nil_desperandum]

Think about that again n_d.

The only vote that matters was the straightforward 2016 vote, leave or stay.

Now yes by all means repeat that vote but posters like Lancaster don't want that kind of question

Think about what?
I asked you a question.

[Elizabeth]

I'm trying to move opinion on from vacuous discussion that viewers of this thread have had to read over the last couple of weeks.

And its unwritten law that people who speak with conviction suddenly hide behind the complexities when it suits them

[Elizabeth]

If you can't work out for yourself what this so called ' Peoples Vote' is about then you should stay away from this particular issue.

I apologise for my bluntness but empty noises are not helping

[Lancasterclaret]

You are not being blunt.

You are trying to score points.

Its been two years of this Liz to be fair (not you but others)

Scoring points doesn't solve this.

Scoring points doesn't change reality.

Scoring points don't magically solve problems.

In short, I've got a lot more time for the Brexit backers on here who acknowledge what the problems are.

If both sides can agree on the issues, then a solution would be a lot easier.

[Elizabeth]

My name is Elizabeth, Lancaster

[CrosspoolClarets]

Just opened up this thread again for my daily read. Interesting recent debate. I struggle to disagree with a word of #2071 so it’s amusing that Lancs thinks he has proven all those points wrong. Just saying they are wrong does not prove them wrong.

This is where I think we are now.

The behaviour of Remainers is likely to result in us getting a bad, bad deal but you never know.

There won’t be a no deal. There never would have been. Too much at stake. The Remainer behaviour harms our negotiating position but the grandstanding Varadkar would eventually capitulate and there would have been a backstop watering down. The plan, I suspect, is for Gove to go on Marr on Sunday and talk more about what he said this week - that to protect farmers we would have tariffs on food if we leave with no deal. Bye bye Ireland’s farming industry. That’s why there will be a compromise, and a deal, no thanks to the Remainers.

While I think it is 75% likely we will agree a bad deal, another possibility opens up which is 25% likely. If Parliament vote for the Cooper amendment next week (banning no deal) then as long as the EU agree we suddenly have time. Time for the ERG to bring down the Government, appoint a new leader, and try to get a majority while Labour is in chaos. The Independent Group would be wiped out before they have began. That may be the ERG’s best chance of a clean Brexit. So if I was a Remainer thinking of voting for Cooper, I would be very wary. Better to agree to May’s bad deal and end up in a Custom’s Union of sorts.

I don’t see much chance of getting the Brexit I voted for (a free trade agreement with moderate migration equally assessed worldwide, with tariffs renegotiated and freedom from the ECJ). But hey ho. That was always going to be the case and it was always going to take a generation.

[Jakubclaret]

You are not being blunt. Yes she is.

You are trying to score points. No she isn’t.

Its been two years of this Liz to be fair (not you but others) it’s been a lot longer nightmare for the brexiteers.

Scoring points doesn't solve this. There has been no mention of point scoring until now.

Scoring points doesn't change reality. No one said it did.

Scoring points don't magically solve problems. See above.

In short, I've got a lot more time for the Brexit backers on here who acknowledge what the problems are. We’ve yet to see it.

If both sides can agree on the issues, then a solution would be a lot easier.

no we just need to leave the EU with or without a deal.

[Lancasterclaret]

I struggle to disagree with a word of #2071 so it’s amusing that Lancs thinks he has proven all those points wrong. Just saying they are wrong does not prove them wrong.

Just provide the evidence that I and others are wrong, and you are right.

I mean, its only been two years.

You must have something by now surely?

[Lancasterclaret]

Sorry Elizabeth!

[martin_p]

There won’t be a no deal. There never would have been. Too much at stake. The Remainer behaviour harms our negotiating position but the grandstanding Varadkar would eventually capitulate and there would have been a backstop watering down.

Don’t you think that if you’ve managed to work out there’d too much at stake for a no deal to happen then the EU might just have worked that out as well? And if it’s so obvious it can’t happen, how could Remainers seeking to make sure no deal doesn’t happen have made a difference?

[Elizabeth]

'You must have something by now surely?'

Reminds me of the EU repetitive tactical assertion that Teresa May has not told them what the UK wants

Wakey, wakey!

[Devils_Advocate]

My name is Elizabeth, Lancaster

Is your surname McCartney?

[Elizabeth]

What do you stand for?

[martin_p]

'You must have something by now surely?'

Reminds me of the EU repetitive tactical assertion that Teresa May has not told them what the UK wants

Wakey, wakey!

You’re the expert in repetitive tactical assertions Wrongo. By the way, you spell the PM’s name ‘Theresa’ not ‘Teresa’. You make exactly the same spelling mistake when you’re posting as Wrongo.

[nil_desperandum]

While I think it is 75% likely we will agree a bad deal, another possibility opens up which is 25% likely. If Parliament vote for the Cooper amendment next week (banning no deal) then as long as the EU agree we suddenly have time. Time for the ERG to bring down the Government, appoint a new leader, and try to get a majority while Labour is in chaos. The Independent Group would be wiped out before they have began. That may be the ERG’s best chance of a clean Brexit. So if I was a Remainer thinking of voting for Cooper, I would be very wary. Better to agree to May’s bad deal and end up in a Custom’s Union of sorts.
.

Not sure that I understand what you are saying, but anyway:
Let's say that the ERG do bring down May, and the Tories get a new leader who appointed a "no deal" cabinet, it wouldn't change the maths in parliament one bit. It would still be the same MPs with the same views, and still no majority for no deal
If you are saying that the ERG could force a Gen Election in order to change the Maths, then they would also have to vote to delay brexit, because they couldn't possibly hold an election and get a new government in place to negotiate with Brussels before March 29th.
And even if brexit were delayed and a Gen Election held, it's by no means certain that the MPs returned would produce a majority for no deal, since the number of "no dealers" at present is very small indeed.
And I wouldn't be too sure that the independents - of which there would be a lot standing, would be wiped out. (The vast majority of the population are disillusioned with the mainstream parties at present, and potentially a lot of votes could go to Farage's new party and independents.)

[Elizabeth]

Ah, Martin with the little 'm'

If someone told me your contribution to tonight's exchange of views was underwhelming I would find it difficult to disagree with them

[martin_p]

Ah, Martin with the little 'm'

If someone told me your contribution to tonight's exchange of views was underwhelming I would find it difficult to disagree with them

You’re not denying being the same poster as Wrongo then.

[Elizabeth]

This week's so called independents are likely to be batted into parliamentary history as soon as the electorate in their constituencies get the first opportunity to vote

[Elizabeth]

I don't reply to posters who behave in the way the local bus riding idiot would behave little martin

[Cubanclaret]

Just been out with a friend who is nervously awaiting whether a €6m environmental project to instill 10 percent more green (trees, park sustainable woodland, EU money) for the city if Manchester will get approved before March 29. While the govt have pledged to honour certain investment pledges from the EU, whose to say they won’t debunk once ‘control’ is in their hands.
This is what amazes me about supporters of Leave - that educated people have some kind of belief or trust in our despicable ruling party to make communally progressive choices for the good of our planet, country and future generations. People have got their heads so up their own arses it’s staggering. Brexit is like having your library being burned down by people who don’t read books.

[martin_p]

I don't reply to posters who behave in the way the local bus riding idiot would behave little martin

This is evidence (I assume you understand that word) that you do. You’re replying exactly as Wrongo would.

[Devils_Advocate]

"Evidence......It is just conjecture that I am a man"