Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Greenmile
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:01 pm

Damo wrote:The first one Martin. And probably the second but I could be wrong. I'm sure you will post some figures quoting how much leave and remain both spent on their respective campaigns
So the leave side didn’t tell any demonstrable lies? Turkey really were on the brink of joining the EU, were they? (to name just one of many examples). How come it still hasn’t happened then?

It’s a good job you don’t “only listen to the opinion of a small handful of like minded people” so you’re here to put us right.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:04 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:So that makes it right then as long as it’s legal it’s ok.
Not necessarily, no, but as long as it’s legal, it’s not breaking the law, so my assertion that only one side broke the law can’t be shown to be nonsense by going on about the govt leaflets, as you were trying to do.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:05 pm

Greenmile wrote:Not in the eyes of the law though, which is what “illegal” means.
You seem very brazen about the political establishment the high elite abusing the tax payers money in order to try to swing a referendum result to favour. If I didn’t know any better you could interpret bias.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:10 pm

After 87 pages of what "evidence" means, are we really going to have similar on what constitutes "illegal"?

I mean guys, I get you are disappointed, but come on!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:10 pm

Damo wrote:The first one Martin. And probably the second but I could be wrong. I'm sure you will post some figures quoting how much leave and remain both spent on their respective campaigns
These are all true! Britain has a border with Syria? Jesus, all this Brexit stuff in the news has really made me take my eye off the ball regarding us annexing a large part of Europe.

Image

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:13 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:You seem very brazen about the political establishment the high elite abusing the tax payers money in order to try to swing a referendum result to favour. If I didn’t know any better you could interpret bias.
You seem to be struggling to keep up with the conversation. I said Leave broke the law and implied that Remain didn’t. You claimed that was nonsense, because of some leaflets issued by the govt. I’m just explaining why it isn’t.

I’ve made no comment on whether the leaflets were a good use of taxpayers’ money; I’m just pointing out that the printing and distribution of them broke no laws.

If you want to talk about wasting taxpayers’ money, the entire referendum and fallout from it has and will cost far more than a few leaflets, no matter how the whole thing eventually pans out.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:13 pm

Since when is referencing living in a bubble? :?:
It isn't, but some of your posts do suggest you've got preconceived opinions that are not mainstream, and you happily back them up with non-mainstream opinions.

Nothing wrong with that, but when you are going against mainstream thinking, then your evidence has to be spot on.

So what evidence do you have that the 1st referendum was as bent as the 2nd one clearly was?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:15 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:After 87 pages of what "evidence" means, are we really going to have similar on what constitutes "illegal"?

I mean guys, I get you are disappointed, but come on!
Not half as much as you, it got voted down, a few days ago you was almost creaming yourself at the prospect of the deal going through without any problems, & at the time it was mentioned there could be a lack of legal adjustments binding to the backstop.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:16 pm

Don't forget to abstain from the next referendum if you think it's un-democratic :)

And honestly, I'll be voting Leave in the next one.

I don't think the UK should have a say in the decision making processes of Europe anymore after this pathetic farce.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:17 pm

If laws were broken then it seems a little strange that Scotland yard have dropped investigations into it.
What you really describe as "breaking the law" is a politically motivated referral to the police, by a group of pro remain civil servants.
A group described by Lord Addonis (staunch remainer) as incompetent. The same group rejected an investigation into the remain campaign for exactly the same things. The lib dems were fined as per their part in the remain campaign also.
Not sure why I have bothered to go over this again, just explaining my "nonsense" comment

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:19 pm

Greenmile wrote:So the leave side didn’t tell any demonstrable lies? Turkey really were on the brink of joining the EU, were they? (to name just one of many examples). How come it still hasn’t happened then?

It’s a good job you don’t “only listen to the opinion of a small handful of like minded people” so you’re here to put us right.
I saw lies on both sides. So did you probably

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spiral » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:20 pm

aggi wrote: Image
https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... %20albania" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:21 pm

You are very good at making stuff up.

To me, a rational human being with some idea of the change of mood of the country, it was completely inconceivable that the ERG would risk not voting for the deal.

But they have, and I'm guessing they are relying on the non-No deal MPs not being united on anything else. Its risky, but if it gets them the "No Deal" (the one that they won't be affected by, but we will be) they crave then they won't care.

To be honest, I've probably massively underestimated that these guys are quite happy to whinge about Brexit within the EU rather than put up with a compromise.

My contempt for them though went to the max though

And with the greatest respect in the world, at least I'm trying to make sense of this. What are you doing apart from ignoring everything you don't want to hear?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:21 pm

Damo wrote:If laws were broken then it seems a little strange that Scotland yard have dropped investigations into it.
What you really describe as "breaking the law" is a politically motivated referral to the police, by a group of pro remain civil servants.
A group described by Lord Addonis (staunch remainer) as incompetent. The same group rejected an investigation into the remain campaign for exactly the same things. The lib dems were fined as per their part in the remain campaign also.
Not sure why I have bothered to go over this again, just explaining my "nonsense" comment
...and the demonstrable lies continue (I realise you’re probably not part of the official Leave EU campaign, but still)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 pm

Damo wrote:I saw lies on both sides. So did you probably
I saw inaccurate predictions from both sides, but the demonstrable lies (I chose that word for a reason) only came from one side.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 pm

Greenmile wrote:You seem to be struggling to keep up with the conversation. I said Leave broke the law and implied that Remain didn’t. You claimed that was nonsense, because of some leaflets issued by the govt. I’m just explaining why it isn’t.

I’ve made no comment on whether the leaflets were a good use of taxpayers’ money; I’m just pointing out that the printing and distribution of them broke no laws.

If you want to talk about wasting taxpayers’ money, the entire referendum and fallout from it has and will cost far more than a few leaflets, no matter how the whole thing eventually pans out.
I wasn’t disputing that despite saying it’s nonsense, even though 1 side technically broke the law & the other side didn’t as it was protected by the political establishment, it was just a general observation of how you portray your side of the argument & fail to acknowledge certain morals & principles in order to strengthen your case.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 pm

Greenmile wrote:...and the demonstrable lies continue (I realise you’re probably not part of the official Leave EU campaign, but still)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 8166456993" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... n-campaign" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 9383519047" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"demonstrable lies"

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:26 pm

Greenmile wrote:I saw inaccurate predictions from both sides, but the demonstrable lies (I chose that word for a reason) only came from one side.
What about the demonstable lie regarding the over night recession?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:29 pm

Just read a little bit of the thread above.

Seriously, does anyone think that there are any members of the electorate who truly understand the EU and what it means for the UK to be a member of the EU to cast a vote that is worth counting?

Anyone who believes a second referendum is a good idea - and this is without regard to whether they voted remain or leave in June-2016 - is fooling themselves. What do we really know today that we didn't know in 2016? I wouldn't trust a single one of the 35+ million to know what they are voting for.

As I posted back in December, the only way forward is to rescind Article 50. No begging, no "please can we delay Brexit...", just simple "we aren't leaving." Then go back in and look at reforming the EU from the inside. And, in the meantime, "clean up" our inept political system.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:30 pm

Damo wrote:https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 8166456993

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... n-campaign" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 9383519047" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"demonstrable lies"
Which of those links shows that either the Remain campaign broke the law, or that the leave campaign didn’t? Because as far as I can tell, it’s none of them.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:31 pm

aggi wrote:These are all true! Britain has a border with Syria? Jesus, all this Brexit stuff in the news has really made me take my eye off the ball regarding us annexing a large part of Europe.

Image

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But the emergency budget was Project Fear though, remember that? :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:33 pm

Damo wrote:What about the demonstable lie regarding the over night recession?
That was an inaccurate prediction (obviously, if you read what I have written).

Here’s a clue to avoid you coming up with any more failed predictions and presenting them as lies. If a statement was made about potential future events which didn’t come to pass, it was an inaccurate prediction. If a false statement was made about the status quo at the time (note the present tense used in the ads that aggi has posted) it was a lie.

Hope this helps.
Last edited by Greenmile on Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:36 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:I wasn’t disputing that despite saying it’s nonsense...
Brilliant! Classic Jakub. You’re fast overtaking Ringo as my favourite poster - he can get a bit repetitive but with you it’s all killer no filler.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:37 pm

Greenmile wrote:Which of those links shows that either the Remain campaign broke the law, or that the leave campaign didn’t? Because as far as I can tell, it’s none of them.
Remain were fined for breaching spending, as per the link.
Scotland yard are not investigating leave. As per the link.
The electoral commission gave false information (demonstrable lies) to the leave campaign. As per the link.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:37 pm

Greenmile wrote:Which of those links shows that either the Remain campaign broke the law, or that the leave campaign didn’t? Because as far as I can tell, it’s none of them.
It's just a different perspective, Greenmile. You see that the Law is the Law and must be obeyed to the letter; breaking the law is wrong, astaying within the law is right. Some of us think it slightly more nuanced.

For example, as we both know, the law was framed so that Remain could spend £16m on the campaign and Leave could spend £7m. The Remain side set the rules and skewed them in their favour, but they're the ones who make the law and they could make whatever law they wanted. Is it fair that Remain had twice the budget? No, of course not - we all know that. But is it legal? Yes. You're happy with that, most Brexiters are not.

And the obvious next question is, does the fact that Brexit followed the Electoral Commission;s advice and overpent, so they spent £7.25m against Remain's £16m, mean that the election was unfairly skewed towards Brexit? I don't see it. I'd say Remain still had the edge, because they had a bigger budget.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:39 pm

Damo wrote:Remain were fined for breaching spending, as per the link.
Scotland yard are not investigating leave. As per the link.
The electoral commission gave false information (demonstrable lies) to the leave campaign. As per the link.
None of them then. Thought so.

And since when were the electoral commission part of the official Remain campaign?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:41 pm

dsr wrote:It's just a different perspective, Greenmile. You see that the Law is the Law and must be obeyed to the letter; breaking the law is wrong, astaying within the law is right. Some of us think it slightly more nuanced.

For example, as we both know, the law was framed so that Remain could spend £16m on the campaign and Leave could spend £7m. The Remain side set the rules and skewed them in their favour, but they're the ones who make the law and they could make whatever law they wanted. Is it fair that Remain had twice the budget? No, of course not - we all know that. But is it legal? Yes. You're happy with that, most Brexiters are not.

And the obvious next question is, does the fact that Brexit followed the Electoral Commission;s advice and overpent, so they spent £7.25m against Remain's £16m, mean that the election was unfairly skewed towards Brexit? I don't see it. I'd say Remain still had the edge, because they had a bigger budget.
So you’re saying that laws should only be followed if you agree with them? That’s some nuance.

Will you be popping down to smash up Hampstead town centre with our other resident civil disobedience fan?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:43 pm

Greenmile wrote:None of them then. Thought so.

And since when were the electoral commission part of the official Remain campaign?
They aren't. The electoral commission are the experts who advise the various campaigns what they can spend; if the Electoral Commission advised Leave what they could spend and got it wrong, can you seriously blame Leave for believing them and getting it wrong with them?

If the taxman tells you how much tax to pay, gets it wrong, and you underpay, would you expect to be in dock for underpaying your tax?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:43 pm

Greenmile wrote:Brilliant! Classic Jakub. You’re fast overtaking Ringo as my favourite poster - he can get a bit repetitive but with you it’s all killer no filler.
I’ve been doing plenty of research into this, 1 breached the law & 1 broke the law by doing the same thing overspending & coincidentally the 1 breaching is remain. 2 of the same kind but worded differently for some reason.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:46 pm

Greenmile wrote:So you’re saying that laws should only be followed if you agree with them? That’s some nuance.

Will you be popping down to smash up Hampstead town centre with our other resident civil disobedience fan?
No, I'm not saying that at all. I said there are degrees by which you consider the seriousness of the offence.

If you heard that your next door neighbour had been caught speeding outside a school, would you be outraged? And would it make a difference whether he was doing 31 mph in the middle of the night, or 65 mph at chucking out time? I didn't deny that Leave, by following the advice of the Electoral Commission, broke the law. I just refuse to see it as a referendum-breaking degree of seriousness.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:48 pm

dsr wrote:They aren't. The electoral commission are the experts who advise the various campaigns what they can spend; if the Electoral Commission advised Leave what they could spend and got it wrong, can you seriously blame Leave for believing them and getting it wrong with them?

If the taxman tells you how much tax to pay, gets it wrong, and you underpay, would you expect to be in dock for underpaying your tax?
From one of Damo’s links (emphasis mine)...

The High Court agreed with the Electoral Commission finding in July that Vote Leave had broken the law, but said the watchdog had misinterpreted the rules, in the run-up to the June 2016 referendum, in advice it gave to the Leave campaign.

My only contention here is that Vote Leave broke the law. The High Court agrees with me. Are they all part of the remainer conspiracy, too?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:48 pm

Greenmile wrote:Brilliant! Classic Jakub. You’re fast overtaking Ringo as my favourite poster - he can get a bit repetitive but with you it’s all killer no filler.
He's not in the same class as Ringo.
This evening's events will no doubt have him foaming at the mouth, but he's nowhere to be seen. Where is he?
Maybe he has reacted so badly to today's developments that his carers have medicated him in order to prevent him spontaneously combusting. ;)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:51 pm

dsr wrote:No, I'm not saying that at all. I said there are degrees by which you consider the seriousness of the offence.

If you heard that your next door neighbour had been caught speeding outside a school, would you be outraged? And would it make a difference whether he was doing 31 mph in the middle of the night, or 65 mph at chucking out time? I didn't deny that Leave, by following the advice of the Electoral Commission, broke the law. I just refuse to see it as a referendum-breaking degree of seriousness.
So you’re happy with a little lawbreaking as part of the democratic process, as long as it’s not too serious? Who decides what constitutes “serious” lawbreaking and what’s an acceptable amount of electoral fraud?

Maybe they should set up an independent watchdog to decide. They could call it “the Commission for Elections” or something. I’m sure someone can think of a catchier name than that, though.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:53 pm

Greenmile wrote:That was an inaccurate prediction (obviously, if you read what I have written).

Here’s a clue to avoid you coming up with any more failed predictions and presenting them as lies. If a statement was made about potential future events which didn’t come to pass, it was an inaccurate prediction. If a false statement was made about the status quo at the time (note the present tense used in the ads that aggi has posted) it was a lie.

Hope this helps.
It was the chancellor who said it. To you and a few other staunch remainers it was a poor forecast. To the other 90% of the country it was a bare faced lie

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:56 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:He's not in the same class as Ringo.
This evening's events will no doubt have him foaming at the mouth, but he's nowhere to be seen. Where is he?
Maybe he has reacted so badly to today's developments that his carers have medicated him in order to prevent him spontaneously combusting. ;)
To hazard a guess he’s run out patience waiting for your mob to provide evidence & not opinion I could be wrong of course.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:01 am

Greenmile wrote:So you’re happy with a little lawbreaking as part of the democratic process, as long as it’s not too serious? Who decides what constitutes “serious” lawbreaking and what’s an acceptable amount of electoral fraud?

Maybe they should set up an independent watchdog to decide. They could call it “the Commission for Elections” or something. I’m sure someone can think of a catchier name than that, though.
Oh yes. I dare say if you find that the winning party spent 50p too much in a general election, you would rerun the election on the grounds of illegality. I wouldn't, on the grounds of proportionality. Most laws are like that. The penalty gets worse depending on the seriousness.

However, this wasn't electoral fraud. Fraud is when you do it on purpose. Like I said, if you underpay your tax because the taxman has told you the wrong figure, you aren't committing fraud.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:05 am

Greenmile wrote:From one of Damo’s links (emphasis mine)...

The High Court agreed with the Electoral Commission finding in July that Vote Leave had broken the law, but said the watchdog had misinterpreted the rules, in the run-up to the June 2016 referendum, in advice it gave to the Leave campaign.

My only contention here is that Vote Leave broke the law. The High Court agrees with me. Are they all part of the remainer conspiracy, too?
Remain broke the law in exactly the same way. Hence the fine (same punishment as leave) and exactly the same amount of prosecutions following the investigation.
That's not one side is it?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:09 am

Jakubclaret wrote:I wasn’t born pre 1975 so I can’t think of a better excuse than that, sorry can’t help you on that score, maybe some of the older posters will have a better idea of what went on then & the feelings around that time, actually I’d be interested to hear that if anybody else posts regarding the 1975 referendum.
The British people were told that Harold Wilson had renegotiated our deal with the " European Economic Community " , after the Conservatives had taken the country into the " Common Market " on January 1st 1973. As the name implied, the electorate was told that it was a " Common Market ", where goods and services could be bought and sold without tariffs etc . There was never a Referendum before entry, that happened after the event on 5th June 1975 .

Prior to entry, there had been murmurings about loss of Sovereignty, and you must remember that this was only 30 years after the end of the War. Most men and many women, over 50 were likely to have been in the Military during that time, and a majority of men aged 34 and over would have done their 2 years National Service. Many would have had family killed or seriously wounded during the war. This is a quote from Ted Heath's TV address on entry ....

“There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”

Heath knew perfectly well he would not win a Referendum, especially if he outlined the true long term aims of the " Common Market ". FCO document 30/1048, dated April 1971 ( Released under the 30 year rule in 2001 ), shows that the Government were fully aware of the long term aims of the European project. Here are a few excerpts .....

11. " Membership of the Communities will involve us in extensive limitations upon our freedom of action. " For the first time ever, Parliament is binding its successors.

" The loss of external sovereignty will however increase as the Community develops, according to the intention of the preamble to the Treaty of Rome "to establish the foundations of an even closer union among the European peoples ".

12. (ii) The power of the European Court to consider the extent to which a UK statute is compatible with Community Law will indirectly involve an innovation for us, as the European Court's decisions will be binding on our courts which might then have to rule on the validity or applicability of the United Kingdom statute.

18..but it will be in the British interest after accession to encourage the development of the Community toward an effectively harmonised economic, fiscal and monetary system and a fairly closely coordinated and consistent foreign and defence policy. If it came to do so then essential aspects of sovereignty both internal and external would indeed increasingly be transferred to the Community itself.

22.. Even with the most dramatic development of the Community the major member states can hardly lose the "last resort" ability to withdraw in much less than three decades. The Community's development could produce before then a period in which the political practicability of withdrawal was doubtful. If the point should ever be reached at which inability to renounce the Treaty (and with it the degeneration of the national institutions which could opt for such a policy) was clear, then sovereignty, external, parliamentary and practical would indeed be diminished. After entry there would be a major responsibility on HMG and on all political parties not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures or unfavourable economic developments to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community.

24 (ii) The transfer of major executive responsibilities to the bureaucratic Commission in Brussels will exacerbate popular feeling of alienation from government.

24 (v) ...The more the Community is developed ... the more Parliamentary sovereignty will be eroded. ...The right ... to withdraw will remain for a very considerable time. ...The sovereignty of the State will surely remain unchallenged for this century at least.

25. The impact of entry upon sovereignty is closely related to the blurring of distinctions between domestic political and foreign affairs, to the greater political responsibility of the bureaucracy of the Community and the lack of effective democratic control.


If you've read this post so far, thank you. You may be of the Remainer pursuasion, a position I respect. However, I hope this shows some of the reasons that some of us feel so strongly about the Sovereignty of the British people, and how it was given away by our elected representatives, after misleading the electorate and without our consent.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:10 am

Damo wrote:Remain broke the law in exactly the same way. Hence the fine (same punishment as leave) and exactly the same amount of prosecutions following the investigation.
That's not one side is it?
Source? One that says the Remain campaign “broke the law”, please, or I’ll put this down as just one more in a long line of brexiter lies.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:13 am

dsr wrote:Oh yes. I dare say if you find that the winning party spent 50p too much in a general election, you would rerun the election on the grounds of illegality. I wouldn't, on the grounds of proportionality. Most laws are like that. The penalty gets worse depending on the seriousness.

However, this wasn't electoral fraud. Fraud is when you do it on purpose. Like I said, if you underpay your tax because the taxman has told you the wrong figure, you aren't committing fraud.
Where have I suggested rerunning the referendum because Vote Leave broke the law? From memory, I was just arguing that any failure to implement its result probably shouldn’t be cause for Hampstead to give up on democracy forever and embrace anarchy / civil disobedience. I merely mentioned the fact it was advisory and that one side broke the law as factors to support this argument. Then Damo said this was nonsense so I had to patiently explain why he was wrong.

And if you believe they didn’t do it (overspend) on purpose then you’re incredibly naïf or stupid (or lying, of course).
Last edited by Greenmile on Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:15 am

Greenmile wrote:Source? One that says the Remain campaign “broke the law”, please, or I’ll put this down as just one more in a long line of brexiter lies.
I've already presented it a few comments ago

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:22 am

Damo wrote:I've already presented it a few comments ago
No you haven’t. Breaching rules and breaking the law aren’t synonymous, otherwise we’d have footballers up in court for handball.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:38 am

Greenmile wrote:No you haven’t. Breaching rules and breaking the law aren’t synonymous, otherwise we’d have footballers up in court for handball.
They both breached the same rules

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:51 am

Greenmile wrote:Where have I suggested rerunning the referendum because Vote Leave broke the law?
Sorry, you're right. You said that the result should be declared null and void, but you didn't suggest we run it again. Would you actually have re-run it, or would you have declared it void and not risked a re-run?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:41 am

Damo wrote:They both breached the same rules
So it should be easy to find me a credible source which says the Remain campaign “broke the law”. I’ll wait.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:43 am

dsr wrote:Sorry, you're right. You said that the result should be declared null and void, but you didn't suggest we run it again. Would you actually have re-run it, or would you have declared it void and not risked a re-run?
I would have declared it void and stayed in the EU but it doesn't matter, a second referendum will deliver that result.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:44 am

Greenmile wrote:So it should be easy to find me a credible source which says the Remain campaign “broke the law”. I’ll wait.
No, it didn't.

The Electoral Commission has rejected allegations that the Remain campaign broke electoral law.
Former Conservative minister Priti Patel had accused Britain Stronger in Europe of "joint working" with other Remain campaign groups.
The commission did not find sufficient evidence to justify a fuller investigation.
Last month the official Leave campaign was fined by the commission for breaking electoral law and referred to the police.

https://www.businessinsider.es/the-elec ... ?r=US&IR=T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:46 am

dsr wrote:Sorry, you're right. You said that the result should be declared null and void, but you didn't suggest we run it again. Would you actually have re-run it, or would you have declared it void and not risked a re-run?
Fair enough you’re right. It was late and I’d forgotten exactly what I’d said.

Technically I wasn’t wrong, and absolutely I wouldn’t have rerun it. The entire thing was a stupid idea and just another example of the Tories putting party before country in the first place. However, I’ll admit that, at the time of posting, I’d forgotten my “null and void” comment.

I think my point was more that - had it been legally binding rather than advisory - the ref would have had to be declared null and void because one side (only one side, Damo) broke the law.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:54 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:No, it didn't.

The Electoral Commission has rejected allegations that the Remain campaign broke electoral law.
Former Conservative minister Priti Patel had accused Britain Stronger in Europe of "joint working" with other Remain campaign groups.
The commission did not find sufficient evidence to justify a fuller investigation.
Last month the official Leave campaign was fined by the commission for breaking electoral law and referred to the police.

https://www.businessinsider.es/the-elec ... ?r=US&IR=T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So they both “breached the same rules” according to Damo yet, from his own link...

The High Court agreed with the Electoral Commission finding in July that Vote Leave had broken the law

...but from your link (which I haven’t read yet - I’m taking your word...

The Electoral Commission has rejected allegations that the Remain campaign broke electoral law.

Must be some sort of remoaner conspiracy then, i suppose.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:12 am

Greenmile wrote:Fair enough you’re right. It was late and I’d forgotten exactly what I’d said.

Technically I wasn’t wrong, and absolutely I wouldn’t have rerun it. The entire thing was a stupid idea and just another example of the Tories putting party before country in the first place. However, I’ll admit that, at the time of posting, I’d forgotten my “null and void” comment.

I think my point was more that - had it been legally binding rather than advisory - the ref would have had to be declared null and void because one side (only one side, Damo) broke the law.
Both broke electoral law, explained more underneath.
https://youtu.be/nS0JOuoBAr4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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