Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:34 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Except the series of votes proposed in the Benn amendment had already been agreed in principle by Liddington earlier in the day, and now MPs have voted to extend beyond Marh 29th, so both elements of Benn's amendment are likely to come to pass, but in fairness, I have to admit I wouldn't be surprised if there were to be more twists and turns.

But the crucial principle that the executive runs the country is thankfully still in.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:35 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:THE ABOVE POST IS ME REPLYING TO RINGOr

You've lost me now - Are you saying you're talking to yourself? Shall I leave you to it?

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:36 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:THIS IS "AGGI" FORGETTING TO LOG OUT AND REPLYING BACK TO ME AS "GREENMILE"

BANG TO RIGHTS MY TWO FACED REMOANER CHUMP

I’m not sure you have any actual evidence that greenmile is aggi

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:39 pm

Ringo, if no deal is not an option, would you prefer to leave with May's deal, or remain a full member of the EU?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:40 pm

aggi wrote:Well I didn't say that but I know that when you don't understand something you just reinterpret it to fit your narrative and spout out something unrelated to what was originally said (and then complain that people are being pedantic as you don't understand the difference) so there isn't much point in debating it other than to point out you're making stuff up again.

THIS IS "AGGI" REPLYING TO ME

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:40 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Somebody thinks he's clever with technology!

He's that clever he forgot to log out and change his user name!

I guess in the mind of someone who took 5 edits to come up with this earlier today, we're pretty much all "clever with technology".

RingoMcCartney wrote:Burnley Ace saidThere was no caveat no small print specifying whether or not "they DIDN’T VOTE to make it an Act" or not. As you're desperately belatedly trying to say there was.

Finally an acceptance that it was a poorly phrased question, which given your newspaper of choice, now comes as no surprise!!

Chin up Ringo, we all love a trier and your comedic value is priceless - just for old times sake - give us your definition of evidence

There was no caveat no small print specifying whether or not "they DIDN’T VOTE to make it an Act" or not. As you're desperately belatedly trying to say there was.

Finally an acceptance that it was a poorly phrased question, which given your newspaper of choice, now comes as no surprise!!

Chin up Ringo, we all love a trier and your comedic value is priceless - just for old times sake - give us your definition of evidence

As I say, I have no issue with you thinking I'm aggi. I'd be pretending to be him by now just for fun, but the real aggi might not be happy with me if I did.

Edit - sorry I forgot...

THIS IS GREENMILE REPLYING TO RINGO

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:42 pm

Anyway, anyone care to try to explain what Bliar has been up to recently?

Should be charged with fuckin treason.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:43 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:

Aggi you and I both know you spent days arguing the toss when Keighley claret attempted to link what happens after a general election to the referendum.

He said the opposition don't just pack up and sit in silence.

I said with a binary in/out referendum only the winning sides manifesto can ever be enacted. To try and accommodate remain would like trying to be half pregnant.

I then said in a general election only the winning party is allowed to enact it's manifesto into legislation and law.

You then stepped in and argued for days on end claiming it was. Attempting to say that when the Tories had stolen a libdems idea it was evidence of a losing party having its manifesto pledge enacted.

I pointed out it was nothing of the sort. It was in fact just political opportunistism to gain popularity.

So my memory is clearly better at recalling what was said and by whom.

You're just as wrong then as you are now!

Anyway you carry on arguing with Turtles head. See if you can lose the argument with him. You lost it with me a long time ago. Despite what your dodgy memory tells you!

THIS IS MY FURTHER REPLY TO "AGGI"

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:46 pm

Greenmile wrote:That's a fair summary as I remember it (although my memory isn't always great).

The bit in bold is where you lost the argument, because it's incontrovertably and pretty much self-evidently true, irrespective of any political opportunism or anything else you may try to use to argue it away.

THIS IS "GREENMILE" REPLYING AS "AGGI" BUT FORGETTING TO LOG IN AND OUT!

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:48 pm

Greenmile wrote:Sorry for suggesting Jakub was overtaking you in my favourite poster stakes, btw. Good to have you back, and more "Ringoesque" than ever.

Having said that, my criticism of you as being a bit repetitive seems to be holding up though.

THIS IS ME REPLYING TO BE RINGO. DON'T GET CONFUSED BY THE FACT I'M QUOTING MYSELF (GREENMILE). THAT WAS JUST FOR CONTEXT. I'M ACTUALLY REPLYING TO RINGO

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:48 pm

Greenmile wrote:I guess in the mind of someone who took 5 edits to come up with this earlier today, we're pretty much all "clever with technology".

As I say, I have no issue with you thinking I'm aggi. I'd be pretending to be him by now just for fun, but the real aggi might not be happy with me if I did.

Edit - sorry I forgot...

THIS IS GREENMILE REPLYING TO RINGO

This you, whoever you are, flailing around, after being rumbled!

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:48 pm

I've been following politics all my life and I have no idea what's going on now.

- They've voted against May's deal (twice).
- They've voted against no deal Brexit.
- They've voted against a second referendum.
- They've voted against Parliament being responsible for negotiations.

Given that Parliament are putting their hands over their ears and going "NO! NO! NO!" but won't actually do anything, surely it's time for a General Election. This Parliament is a joke and we need new MPs.

Also, what's with all the formatting?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:49 pm

HOIST BY YOUR OWN PETARD GREEN AGGI!

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:50 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:THIS IS "GREENMILE" REPLYING AS "AGGI" BUT FORGETTING TO LOG IN AND OUT!

Why have you emphasised the word "my"? Am I supposed to have used someone else's memory to remember your earlier conversation with aggi?

TIGRTR (not a great acronym but it saves time)

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:55 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote: HOIST BY YOUR OWN PETARD GREEN AGGI!

OK OK I'm aggi (sorry aggi). You've got me. You should be a detective.

Do you accept you lost the argument with me, aggi, because the bit I put in bold when I quoted your post way back when - ie "when the Tories had stolen a libdems idea it was evidence of a losing party having its manifesto pledge enacted" - is incontrovertably and pretty much self-evidently true, irrespective of any political opportunism or anything else you may try to use to argue it away.

Or wil you just dodge that point again by saying aggi and me are the same person? Which we are, of course.

TIGRTR

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:01 pm

It's a fair point, no-one's seen me and Greenmile in the same room (actually, they might have, I don't know what s/he looks like).

Although given I've been posting on various Burnley sites as Aggi for the past twenty years or so that must mean that Greenmile is the imaginary persona. Sorry fella

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:04 pm

claret_in_exile wrote:...Also, what's with all the formatting?

I’m not sure. Ringo started it, and it seemed like a bit of fun amidst all the depressing politics, so I joined in.

TIGRTCiE

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:04 pm

Do some of you remainers really think no deal is off the table? Or are you just putting your fingers in your ears, saying la la la la la as per usual?

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:06 pm

aggi wrote:It's a fair point, no-one's seen me and Greenmile in the same room (actually, they might have, I don't know what s/he looks like).

Although given I've been posting on various Burnley sites as Aggi for the past twenty years or so that must mean that Greenmile is the imaginary persona. Sorry fella

Fine by me. I’ll take up the “imaginary” role, as I presume that would make me magic, essentially. I’m only limited by the boundaries of your imagination.

Edit - (I told you my memory is bad)

THIS IS GREENMILE REPLYING TO AGGI

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:06 pm

I am just the the EU refusing an extension away from wanting a GE. Any party that promises a brexit based on a managed no deal if the EU won't allow us to leave with dignity will get a workable majority.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:07 pm

Greenmile wrote:OK OK I'm aggi (sorry aggi). You've got me. You should be a detective.

Do you accept you lost the argument with me, aggi, because the bit I put in bold when I quoted your post way back when - ie "when the Tories had stolen a libdems idea it was evidence of a losing party having its manifesto pledge enacted" - is incontrovertably and pretty much self-evidently true, irrespective of any political opportunism or anything else you may try to use to argue it away.

Or wil you just dodge that point again by saying aggi and me are the same person? Which we are, of course.

TIGRTR

You clearly don't understand the difference between "political opportunistism" to gain popularity amongst voters, and your suggestion ( "aggis") that a loosing party is allowed to enact parts of its manifesto through white papers and legislation into law.

It simply is not.

That would be driving a coach and horses through hundreds of years of established parliamentary procedure.

android · Post by **android** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:08 pm

[quote="claret_in_exile"]I've been following politics all my life and I have no idea what's going on now.

- They've voted against May's deal (twice).
- They've voted against no deal Brexit.
- They've voted against a second referendum.
- They've voted against Parliament being responsible for negotiations.

Given that Parliament are putting their hands over their ears and going "NO! NO! NO!" but won't actually do anything, surely it's time for a General Election. This Parliament is a joke and we need new MPs.

And some fantastic individual highlights from today:
- Alastair Peoples/Losers Vote Campbell complains about MPS voting for a second referendum today
- Corbyn stands up after the votes to claim he supports a 2nd referendum moments after instructing his MPs to abstain from this proposal
- Barclay proposes government motion then votes against it

Truly mad times

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:10 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:So hard-line remaining Tories won't want to do it?

I'll also remind you May has stated that current workers rights will be enshrined in UK law, or did you forget that part to suit you're narrative?

Anyway, back to the slightly more adult discussion.

I imagine some remaining tories also want to do it but the fact remains that there are a number of EU regulations governing employment (for instance you cannot dismiss a worker because they refuse to transfer from full-time to part-time work). At the moment if you want to get rid of that it would be very difficult involving agreement of multiple member states and then pushing it through in the UK.

Post Brexit the more difficult step is removed. Similarly, current workers rights may be enshrined in UK law but it's a lot easier for a tory to change that than EU law.

Plenty of prominent tories and brexiteers have talked about wanting to get rid of EU regulations relating to employment. Why do you think it is mentioned so often that there are concerns about employment rights post-Brexit.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:11 pm

Damo wrote:Do some of you remainers really think no deal is off the table? Or are you just putting your fingers in your ears, saying la la la la la as per usual?

I think everything is still on the table but the last couple of days have made no deal a bit less likely than it was.

I’m only imaginary though, so what would I know?

I’m also not as clued up as some on here, so I may be wrong. I’m not sure there is really any consensus on what the recent votes have done to the chances of any particular outcome. What do the bookies reckon? That’s usually as good as guide as anything else (I say “usually” but I think we’re in uncharted waters here).

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:12 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:You clearly don't understand the difference between "political opportunistism" to gain popularity amongst voters, and your suggestion ( "aggis") that a loosing party is allowed to enact parts of its manifesto through white papers and legislation into law.

It simply is not.

That would be driving a coach and horses through hundreds of years of established parliamentary procedure.

Fair play for answering. I think you’re wrong, of course, but let’s not go over that ground again.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:14 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:You clearly don't understand the difference between "political opportunistism" to gain popularity amongst voters, and your suggestion ( "aggis") that a loosing party is allowed to enact parts of its manifesto through white papers and legislation into law.

Ah, this is the bit where Ringo didn't understand the point so changed what I said to something he thought I said. Sadly they were entirely different which is why Ringo won't be able to find me saying a loosing party is allowed to enact parts of its manifesto through white papers and legislation into law. because he entirely made that up.

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:16 pm

Damo wrote:Do some of you remainers really think no deal is off the table? Or are you just putting your fingers in your ears, saying la la la la la as per usual?

No, "no deal" is still the default unless we do something about it.

Are they EU going to vote unanimously to give us an extension based on the shenanigans of the last two years (especially the last two days)? I doubt it, unless we're willing to consider a second referendum (which was just voted down).

"No deal" is by far the most likely outcome at this point.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:16 pm

Damo wrote:Do some of you remainers really think no deal is off the table? Or are you just putting your fingers in your ears, saying la la la la la as per usual?

It's still on the table as the default position. I don't think it will happen but then I never did think No Deal would happen

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:16 pm

aggi wrote:Ah, this is the bit where Ringo didn't understand the point so changed what I said to something he thought I said. Sadly they were entirely different which is why Ringo won't be able to find me saying a loosing party is allowed to enact parts of its manifesto through white papers and legislation into law. because he entirely made that up.

Aggi you and I both know you spent days arguing the toss when Keighley claret attempted to link what happens after a general election to the referendum.

He said the opposition don't just pack up and sit in silence.

I said with a binary in/out referendum only the winning sides manifesto can ever be enacted. To try and accommodate remain would like trying to be half pregnant.

I then said in a general election only the winning party is allowed to enact it's manifesto into legislation and law.

You then stepped in and argued for days on end claiming it was. Attempting to say that when the Tories had stolen a libdems idea it was evidence of a losing party having its manifesto pledge enacted.

I pointed out it was nothing of the sort. It was in fact just political opportunistism to gain popularity.

So my memory is clearly better at recalling what was said and by whom.

You're just as wrong then as you are now!

Anyway you carry on arguing with Turtles head. See if you can lose the argument with him. You lost it with me a long time ago. Despite what your dodgy memory tells you!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:19 pm

Is this the bit where you reply back with -

"Greenmile wrote:That's a fair summary as I remember it (although mymemory isn't always great).

The bit in bold is where you lost the argument, because it's incontrovertably and pretty much self-evidently true, irrespective of any political opportunism or anything else you may try to use to argue it away"

But remember to log in as "aggi!"

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:22 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Is this the bit where you reply back with -

"Greenmile wrote:That's a fair summary as I remember it (although mymemory isn't always great).

The bit in bold is where you lost the argument, because it's incontrovertably and pretty much self-evidently true, irrespective of any political opportunism or anything else you may try to use to argue it away"

But remember to log in as "aggi!"

I'd be happy to go around again if you want, but I think it may annoy the other posters on here, so let's let it drop. I mean, you're basically plagiarising yourself at this point.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:25 pm

Greenmile wrote:I think everything is still on the table but the last couple of days have made no deal a bit less likely than it was.

I’m only imaginary though, so what would I know?

I’m also not as clued up as some on here, so I may be wrong. I’m not sure there is really any consensus on what the recent votes have done to the chances of any particular outcome. What do the bookies reckon? That’s usually as good as guide as anything else (I say “usually” but I think we’re in uncharted waters here).

I've tried to find some odds, but can only find odds on whether we leave with no deal before 1st April, and I think there's still a not insignificant chance of no deal happening later than that, after (my interpretation of) today's votes.

This link suggests they haven't changed too much over the last few days though.

https://smarkets.com/event/945627/polit ... rexit-2018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:31 pm

So everything and every outcome is still on the table?

Been out watching lads football so just trying to catch up!

Also I'm not sure, but is Ringo shagging Greenmile and aggi isn't happy? It's a bit confusing.

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:39 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So everything and every outcome is still on the table?

Been out watching lads football so just trying to catch up!

Also I'm not sure, but is Ringo shagging Greenmile and aggi isn't happy? It's a bit confusing.

Nothing has been decided, except the fact that Parliaments hates everything that's been suggested.

There's definitely some sexual tension there.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:42 pm

bobinho wrote:Anyway, anyone care to try to explain what Bliar has been up to recently?

Should be charged with fuckin treason.

I thought he was the EU peace envoy for the Middle East!

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So everything and every outcome is still on the table?

Been out watching lads football so just trying to catch up!

Also I'm not sure, but is Ringo shagging Greenmile and aggi isn't happy? It's a bit confusing.

Plus the EU will ask for 100 billion to extend Article 50!!

Made the amount up but they are saying they will want a large amount of cash to extend!

Cryssys · Post by **Cryssys** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:47 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Also I'm not sure, but is Ringo shagging Greenmile and aggi isn't happy? It's a bit confusing.

The two timing bas tard ! Playing both ends against the middle

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:48 pm

Course they will, we have no chips left.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:48 pm

Blair left the Middle East office in 2015!

But still WTF was he doing being allowed near there again.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:48 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So everything and every outcome is still on the table?

Been out watching lads football so just trying to catch up!

Also I'm not sure, but is Ringo shagging Greenmile and aggi isn't happy? It's a bit confusing.

Come on now, Lancs. There’s no need to bring things down into the gutter. Whilst I presume Ringo’s sleeping partner is imaginary, like I am, you’re out of order to suggest he’s shagging me (could you not have put it the other way ‘round, at least? - I’m more of a postman than a letterbox).

Although, given aggi and I are the same person, I’d imagine he’d be more than unhappy in that scenario. I reckon he’d be furious.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:52 pm

Apologies Greenmile

Today has been a weird day in parliament and I needed a giggle.

For some reason, I've now got the image of Ringo as the Gimp from Pulp Fiction in my head, and its not good.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Apologies Greenmile

Apology accepted (of course)

Lancasterclaret wrote:Today has been a weird day in parliament and I needed a giggle.

You and me both, as you may be able to glean from my recent contributions to this thread.

Lancasterclaret wrote:For some reason, I've now got the image of Ringo as the Gimp from Pulp Fiction in my head, and its not good.

You’re on your own with that one though, thank god.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:08 pm

summitclaret wrote:But the crucial principle that the executive runs the country is thankfully still in.

Fair enough - if that's your genuine and honest opinion then fair enough indeed, but out of interest: would you still hold that honest opinion if Corbyn was PM leading a minority government propped up by a group of political extremists and he kept putting the same motion forward?
Much safer in the long term that Parliament should be sovereign, (which basically takes us back to the beginning of the journey with the "Gina Miller" case in which the courts ruled that Parliament was sovereign and thus we can't become a dictatorship).

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:19 pm

I would not be happy with a corbyn government but if he gets a majority then so be it. He would however endure no more labour governments for 15 years.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:23 pm

There is absolutely no Brexit scenario that would make me think a Corbyn government was a good idea

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:24 pm

To be fair, Summit. The Tories could be heading the same way.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:26 pm

The only Brexit scenario that would make me vote for a Corbyn government is one in which the ERG are in control.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:29 pm

summitclaret wrote:I would not be happy with a corbyn government but if he gets a majority then so be it. He would however endure no more labour governments for 15 years.

But the point is that May doesn't have a majority. I specifically said a "Corbyn minority government ......."

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:29 pm

It's a bit of a stretch to suggest the amendment would have seen parliament, not the govt, running the country. The govt governs at the pleasure of the house and does so right up until the point where a VONC is passed. The failed amendment would have seen parliament wrestle control of one particular policy, albeit a significant one, for no other reason than to break, or attempt to break, an obvious deadlock. Important not to overstate what's happened (or didn't happen, as it happens!) This wasn't a power grab.

On the prospect of no-deal, there was always three hurdles to overcome for it to be taken off the table completely: the political hurdle, the legal & technical hurdle, and the mathematical hurdle. The events of this week illustrate quite convincingly that the first has been cleared.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:30 pm

So my reading of where today leaves us. MPs will get a third chance to vote on May’s deal next week. If the deal is finally passed then the U.K. will request a short extension to article 50 (June) to allow the necessary legislation to be passed before exiting. There wouldn’t be any reason for the EU not to allow us to do that.

If May’s deal is defeated again next week then the U.K. will request a longer extension to article 50 (a year?) to allow us to come up with an alternative approach. This will start with some indicative votes to try and see if there’s a consensus for anything. These votes may or may not include another vote on a second referendum. The EUs agreement to such an extension will probably depend on how much they think parliament can actually come up with something the majority of MPs can get behind, or maybe a belief that a long extension might lead to the death of Brexit.