Climate Change

Claretincraven · Post by **Claretincraven** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:50 pm

wickdkewlclaret wrote:Climate change has affected the Gulf Stream pattern permanently, it seldom goes from west to east consistently any more.

And how likely is it that we will have summer temperatures twice the average?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:56 pm

Claretincraven wrote:I saw a fantastic quote from a guy from E3G who apparently are an environmental lobbying group.
Today's warm weather is all due to climate change. Just imagine if the temperature was twice the seasonal average in the middle of summer.
Bonkers. It's twice the average for the time of the year because the wind is blowing up from the Canaries, and not from the North Atlantic which is the normal weather pattern for late February.

So you accept that it's not normal?

Climate change caused by global warming isn't just going to make things slightly less cold here. It's going to make the extremes more extreme and more likely. This is one extreme, having this weather pattern from the tropics come up and allow us to wear our flipflops in February. Another extreme is last year when an arctic system was pushed much farther south than usual.

It's not the case that it's just going to make what would normally be 4 degree weather 5 degrees or 6 degrees instead.
This is what happens when we destabilise the jet stream. It meanders frequently anyway, but we're making it worse.

Here's the most recent forecast of the jet stream path from: https://www.netweather.tv/charts-and-data/jetstream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking at this you'd expect that we'd be getting warm weather because the jet stream is allowing higher pressure systems up from west africa, while it's pushing thos systems back down and allowing more arctic systems to come down over eastern europe and the eastern mediterreanian.

And that's borne out when you look at live temperatures which i got from this cool website: https://earth.nullschool.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is only part of how and why our weather will get more extreme as more effects of climate change come to pass.

Claretincraven · Post by **Claretincraven** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

You see, despite all my good intentions, I have done it.
Got into a bloody argument with the sites resident troll, who at least hasn't disappointed me as he knows what I think better than I do.
I will know better next time.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:16 pm

Claretincraven wrote:You see, despite all my good intentions, I have done it.
Got into a bloody argument with the sites resident troll, who at least hasn't disappointed me as he knows what I think better than I do.
I will know better next time.

I put effort into compiling what i think will be an informative post for you and your only response is to call me the troll? **** off mate.

I go to two websites to get you visual aids to show you how the jet stream affects our weather, to demonstrate that it's a really bad idea to **** around with the stability fo the jet stream and this is how you reply?

wickdkewlclaret · Post by **wickdkewlclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:19 pm

Claretincraven wrote:And how likely is it that we will have summer temperatures twice the average?

I’d say it will continue to become more likely as the years go by.

Ilovebeer · Post by **Ilovebeer** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:23 pm

Claretincraven wrote:You see, despite all my good intentions, I have done it.
Got into a bloody argument with the sites resident troll, who at least hasn't disappointed me as he knows what I think better than I do.
I will know better next time.

Spot on, I don’t post anything on here as the old turtles head ruins most threads on here, if people stopped responding on threads as soon as turtles head replies he might get the message he’s a boring self righteous t@&t

karatekid · Post by **karatekid** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:49 pm

Don't worry guys, this time next week it will be back to being cold and miserable. Enjoy the blip while you can.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:09 am

Direct and indirect human CO2 emissions (breathing, breakdown of human waste and the animals we use) have increased from less than 1 gigaton in 1850 to projected 4.4Gt by 2050 to add to the 36Gt released by fossil fuel use

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:23 am

mdd2 wrote:Direct and indirect human CO2 emissions (breathing, breakdown of human waste and the animals we use) have increased from less than 1 gigaton in 1850 to projected 4.4Gt by 2050 to add to the 36Gt released by fossil fuel use

Let's incorrectly assume that breathing does contribute to climate change, which it doesn't, there's nothing we can do about that that doesn't include massive atrocities that we're obviously never going to do.

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:05 am

Claretincraven wrote:And how likely is it that we will have summer temperatures twice the average?

Already happened plenty of times, most notably in 2003

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:23 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Let's incorrectly assume that breathing does contribute to climate change, which it doesn't, there's nothing we can do about that that doesn't include massive atrocities that we're obviously never going to do.

Population growth will continue to add to it (CO2 emissions)-slowing or reversing will come about either by humans themselves or by "nature" through climate change, crop failures and starvation, and new diseases. Until we find the gene for avarice the slide will continue.
Not unreasonable to assume that a population of 3 billion would produce about half the present CO2 emissions-unless we all had gas guzzling cars and left the lights on 24/7
I was shocked to read that we have to shut down wind farms at times because the grid cannot cope with the excess sometimes generated and the "producers" are paid more NOT to generate electricity than they are paid when generating the stuff. £100million in payments in 2017 apparently

karatekid · Post by **karatekid** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:00 pm

Is everyone happy that it's back to being miserable now.

Six fingers · Post by **Six fingers** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:31 pm

Geoengineering is it helping or not

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:40 pm

karatekid wrote:Is everyone happy that it's back to being miserable now.

Been a cracking day darkness fell at 6.15 ish in Sunny Kelbrook..

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:49 pm

610 MPs skipped a debate in parliament on climate change this week. I wonder how many of the people saying "kids should be in school" will be criticising these pieces of ****.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:12 am

Seems like a perfectly fair point

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:15 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Seems like a perfectly fair point

using kids for a political agenda looks like abuse to me...

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:33 am

SmudgetheClaret wrote:using kids for a political agenda looks like abuse to me...

Tell me more https://www.thedailybeast.com/one-year- ... t-him-back" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:28 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Tell me more https://www.thedailybeast.com/one-year- ... t-him-back" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That only started when Trump came to power ...or did it ??

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politi ... 25764.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:47 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:That only started when Trump came to power ...or did it ??

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politi ... 25764.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, the US started separating families because parents committed misdemeanours as a policy under Trump. Previously it was only serious crimes that saw the parents imprisoned.

But this isn't even an example of the parent committing a crime, they did everything by the book and Trump's government still stole the kid.

But the good news is that climate change isn't going to create any refugees at all. Sike. It's expected to create 200 million of them in the next few decades. That's 200 times as many Syrians that arrived in Europe which had you lot flipping your ****.

So keep denying climate change. Watch what happens.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:22 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Yes, the US started separating families because parents committed misdemeanours as a policy under Trump. Previously it was only serious crimes that saw the parents imprisoned.

But this isn't even an example of the parent committing a crime, they did everything by the book and Trump's government still stole the kid.

But the good news is that climate change isn't going to create any refugees at all. Sike. It's expected to create 200 million of them in the next few decades. That's 200 times as many Syrians that arrived in Europe which had you lot flipping your ****.

So keep denying climate change. Watch what happens.

Whoooo what will happen ? now who's scaremongering ? anyone who believes this "we have only 10 years to save the planet" is an idiot or Captain Kirk! The big question I have for any of you man made climate NPCs is ? now that I recycle and had my house insulated and pay 7% extra on my leccy(soon to go up) and no doubt will have to change my diesel car is WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU WANT ME TO DO ? let me guess mmmmmmm? I know you want more of my hard earned money yes ? thought so..

Taffy on the wing · Post by **Taffy on the wing** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:27 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Has every February been the same weather previous to this year ? No fluctuation in temp ever ?

Please go away!

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:58 am

Taffy on the wing wrote:Please go away!

For you ? No

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:29 am

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Whoooo what will happen ? now who's scaremongering ? anyone who believes this "we have only 10 years to save the planet" is an idiot or Captain Kirk! The big question I have for any of you man made climate NPCs is ? now that I recycle and had my house insulated and pay 7% extra on my leccy(soon to go up) and no doubt will have to change my diesel car is WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU WANT ME TO DO ? let me guess mmmmmmm? I know you want more of my hard earned money yes ? thought so..

Just stop denying reality. The climate is changing and it's because of us. Why are you so upset by that fact?

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:33 am

The evidence of Climate change is overwhelming that if we don't act as a civilisation.. and damn quickly then generations to come are going to be dealing with some very severe weather changes and flooding on costal areas.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:39 am

South West Claret. wrote:The evidence of Climate change is overwhelming that if we don't act as a civilisation.. and damn quickly then generations to come are going to be dealing with some very severe weather changes and flooding on costal areas.

It's baffling to me why ordinary people are so certain that it's not happening or isn't man-made. They're no doubt the same kinds of people who denied that smoking caused cancer. Or that lead poisoning was a problem. Or that we were depleting the ozone layer. It's as if some people just enjoy being really stupid.

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:49 am

In reply to Imploding Turtle's question, I have thought the same for a long time. I think the answer is that capitalism is not just an economic system, it is also an ideology, almost a religion. It teaches that satisfaction in life comes through consumption, it teaches individualism, and it is based on the notion of unlimited economic expansion. The inhibition placed on the viability of unlimited expansion by climate change threatens the prevailing belief system of our times. It is a bit like proof being found that Jesus was not divine. It would be so hard for Christians to accept it. Climate change is something similar for the adherents of capitalism and so we desperately want it not to be true.

Another point is that we make what we believe a part of our own personal identity. We can see this on most of the debates on this board. They are not just about ideas but about the identity of the individual, so that when an idea is criticised it becomes a personal insult, a threat to one's self-esteem, and hence the frequent angry and emotional reactions.

That is why I would like to hear from Rowls on this subject. He used to be one of those who most ardently denied climate change but has been silent on the subject recently. I would love to believe he has changed his mind on the subject and if he has he would certainly rise in my estimation. To sacrifice one's ego for the sake of what is true is a fine personal achievement.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:52 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's baffling to me why ordinary people are so certain that it's not happening or isn't man-made. They're no doubt the same kinds of people who denied that smoking caused cancer. Or that lead poisoning was a problem. Or that we were depleting the ozone layer. It's as if some people just enjoy being really stupid.

laziness, very very selfish and a "nothing that I can do to change anything so I won't bother doing anything" sort of attitude.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:00 am

Capitalism has definitely become a religion for a lot of people, and if you think there's got to be a better way of managing the nature of capitalism and it's tendency towards all types of exploitation you're called a communist who wants to destroy society. Or something.

Capitalism has failed, repeatedly, to deal with public health crises caused by capitalism and climate change is just another example of it failing and needing.

It can be made to work well, but we have to start properly punishing bad behaviour through taxes. When Smudge whines about his electricity bill being higher because of green tech he's kinda got a point because the cost to the energy companies is being passed on to consumers. And that's because of capitalism and shareholders' demand for ever increasing profits.

And we should just be punishing bad behaviour and practices, we should be rewarding good behaviour and practices with tax cuts. It wouldn't even really be 'punishment' and 'reward', it would just be a tax to fund the burden these corporations place on the public purse.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:09 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Just stop denying reality. The climate is changing and it's because of us. Why are you so upset by that fact?

Hey just read you have been banned a few times ? thats where fake news gets ya

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:27 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Hey just read you have been banned a few times ? thats where fake news gets ya

StC choosing to change the subject rather than answering a question.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:47 pm

South West Claret. wrote:StC choosing to change the subject rather than answering a question.

really what is the question ? Do i believe in climate change ? yes its been around since day dot ! Do i believe that if we dont do something about so called "man made climate change" we have 10/12 years until the earth dies ..................do i F***

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:51 pm

What I don't get about climate change "skeptics" or deniers, is the idea that they're willing to take such a huge gamble on being right. Even if you thought there was a 0.0000001% chance that the Earth's climate was changing due to human behaviour, is it not worth behaving in a way that fixes a problem that becomes unfixable if you happen to be wrong?

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:55 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:really what is the question ? Do i believe in climate change ? yes its been around since day dot ! Do i believe that if we dont do something about so called "man made climate change" we have 10/12 years until the earth dies ..................do i F***

I agree the "Earth/planet" won't die but the evidence is that people will.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:55 pm

willsclarets wrote:What I don't get about climate change "skeptics" or deniers, is the idea that they're willing to take such a huge gamble on being right. Even if you thought there was a 0.0000001% chance that the Earth's climate was changing due to human behaviour, is it not worth behaving in a way that fixes a problem that becomes unfixable if you happen to be wrong?

Ok lets say you have convinced me (you havent) ive got one simple question for you?

What do you want me to do ? if i start saying yes i believe will that do it ? if not what is my first move please tell me?

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:25 pm

I think you should pay more tax to fly on holiday once a year.

Meanwhile, while you've been reading this, China have built two new coal-fired power stations.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:33 pm

It's a good question. I think part of the problem is the disconnect between how the individual is expected to contribute, and the acceptance of a broader ideology that still functions on mass consumerism and waste. While you pop everything in the right bin and use the right light bulbs, it's a bit pointless if McDonalds are cutting down a bit more rainforest to farm more cows en masse (one tiny industrial example). That's because demand for a wasteful and disposable lifestyle props up the supply, and huge corporations will do anything to tell you they're doing 'their bit' to help the environment. You have a direct relationship with your light bulb and your bins - not with the impact of a McDonalds burger once you've thrown away the wrapper. I'm not saying you eat McDonalds by the by (just in case)

What you, me and everyone else needs to do is start connecting their behaviour to the consequences of that behaviour in everything we do. Even if it's just a conscious and collective acceptance of it to begin with. Why? Because things will never change if there is a general consensus that the way goods are produced and consumed is pretty much ok. There is zero pressure on the people there should be pressure on, who rely on you and me to keep economic models stable. It's a quiet agreement most of us are guilty of to a degree, and while we're really good at feeling bad for an hour after watching a documentary about how nature's natural habitats are being wiped out by our sprawling industrial needs - we're happy to feel that we're doing our bit by separating plastics and glass.

So, what's your first move? Think about it a while, and I don't mean this in a condescending way as I need to do it too. Think about everything you own, consume, use. What are the consequences? Times those consequences by millions. It's only when there's a collective acceptance of a huge problem we generally cannot conceive of, that things will actually change.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:58 pm

Things will not change to a huge extent. There will never be consensus for change. How can there be? If, as it stands, the world is too industrialised, then the solution is to become less so. At the very least, India and China must be made to stop getting richer. How can they be made to do this? They can't.

And at the second least, the richer part of the world will have to de-industrialise to become as poor as India and China. How can the people be persuaded to do this? They can't.

It may be possible to change power stations to nuclear and/or renewable to a greater extent, but it won't be possible to reduce our industrial wants.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:25 pm

willsclarets wrote:It's a good question. I think part of the problem is the disconnect between how the individual is expected to contribute, and the acceptance of a broader ideology that still functions on mass consumerism and waste. While you pop everything in the right bin and use the right light bulbs, it's a bit pointless if McDonalds are cutting down a bit more rainforest to farm more cows en masse (one tiny industrial example). That's because demand for a wasteful and disposable lifestyle props up the supply, and huge corporations will do anything to tell you they're doing 'their bit' to help the environment. You have a direct relationship with your light bulb and your bins - not with the impact of a McDonalds burger once you've thrown away the wrapper. I'm not saying you eat McDonalds by the by (just in case)

What you, me and everyone else needs to do is start connecting their behaviour to the consequences of that behaviour in everything we do. Even if it's just a conscious and collective acceptance of it to begin with. Why? Because things will never change if there is a general consensus that the way goods are produced and consumed is pretty much ok. There is zero pressure on the people there should be pressure on, who rely on you and me to keep economic models stable. It's a quiet agreement most of us are guilty of to a degree, and while we're really good at feeling bad for an hour after watching a documentary about how nature's natural habitats are being wiped out by our sprawling industrial needs - we're happy to feel that we're doing our bit by separating plastics and glass.

So, what's your first move? Think about it a while, and I don't mean this in a condescending way as I need to do it too. Think about everything you own, consume, use. What are the consequences? Times those consequences by millions. It's only when there's a collective acceptance of a huge problem we generally cannot conceive of, that things will actually change.

Dont get me wrong i am 100% behind conservation saving energy and combatting polution particulary plastics etc the problem with the climate agenda(previously global warming) is they will not allow a genuine independant and unbiased debate that is on view to the whole world so we can
be sure its not a political agenda and you can hardly blame deniers when the likes of Al Gore and a bucket load of marxists are at the front of it!!

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:46 pm

dsr wrote:Things will not change to a huge extent. There will never be consensus for change. How can there be? If, as it stands, the world is too industrialised, then the solution is to become less so. At the very least, India and China must be made to stop getting richer. How can they be made to do this? They can't.

And at the second least, the richer part of the world will have to de-industrialise to become as poor as India and China. How can the people be persuaded to do this? They can't.

It may be possible to change power stations to nuclear and/or renewable to a greater extent, but it won't be possible to reduce our industrial wants.

It's hiding behind the problem to say that China and India are having their industrial revolution so let's just keep going as we are. There's an arguable point that change is not just desirable but vital, and given the dynamic of our industrial wants are actually a relatively new phenomenon as a species I think it's small minded to say that we've reached the point of no return. Furthermore it's less about de-industrialising, but leading the way in developing responsible approaches to energy and production that are less harmful to the environment. We still haven't got subsidy systems that incentivise green energy, demand better waste management, minimise de-forestation etc. I think the reason why is what I asserted on my previous post - there isn't a collective pressure on those that produce or govern to change the status quo because we're in on the bargain. Do you think the way we consume food, buy clothing and get around for example are immovable facets of modern life? I really believe people under-estimate their power as citizens and consumers because of that disconnection between personal habit and mass consumerism. It's like not voting because you don't think your vote counts.

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:04 pm

Smudge, who are these 'bucket load of Marxists?' Using a phrase like that seems to be a way of avoiding the point.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:17 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Dont get me wrong i am 100% behind conservation saving energy and combatting polution particulary plastics etc the problem with the climate agenda(previously global warming) is they will not allow a genuine independant and unbiased debate that is on view to the whole world so we can
be sure its not a political agenda and you can hardly blame deniers when the likes of Al Gore and a bucket load of marxists are at the front of it!!

Leaving aside the point that there is little debate left amongst scientists, which I'm assuming you would dispute but I'll ignore that for now. If you are in agreement that pollution in all its forms are bad, then in real terms we're already on the same page aren't we? Would we need the debate you're after before we act?

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:33 pm

willsclarets wrote:Leaving aside the point that there is little debate left amongst scientists, which I'm assuming you would dispute but I'll ignore that for now. If you are in agreement that pollution in all its forms are bad, then in real terms we're already on the same page aren't we? Would we need the debate you're after before we act?

Correct but i dissagree there is little debate left,one side of this argument have the media as a tool to push their view at the same time as surpressing the opposite view its not hard to notice that Sky BBC CH4 go way over the top with weather related news items why is that ?
this is just one tiny bit of info online
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE6QxBaIEv8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:40 pm

This is a cracker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGqcweY1a3I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:48 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:This is a cracker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGqcweY1a3I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing Monckton says about climate change can be trusted. The man is a compulsive liar on the subject. So i guess it's no surprise that you're a big fan of his.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbW-aHv ... P&index=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:04 pm

Some people will only ever accept climate change as a theory IT, it's mental in my view but it won't change unfortunately. While you still have people claiming evolution is a theory and creationism is a thing, it's hard to imagine otherwise.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Nothing Monckton says about climate change can be trusted. The man is a compulsive liar on the subject. So i guess it's no surprise that you're a big fan of his.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbW-aHv ... P&index=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I thought you were banned

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 pm

willsclarets wrote:Some people will only ever accept climate change as a theory IT, it's mental in my view but it won't change unfortunately. While you still have people claiming evolution is a theory and creationism is a thing, it's hard to imagine otherwise.

It's because they don't understand what a scientific theory actually is.

The theory of man-made climate change is a theory, as is the theory of gravity and the theory of evolution. People seem to think that if something is a 'theory' in science then it means there's serious doubt about the accuracy of the theories when actually something becoming a 'theory' is the closest thing there is in science to 'proof'.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:20 pm

willsclarets wrote:Leaving aside the point that there is little debate left amongst scientists, which I'm assuming you would dispute but I'll ignore that for now. If you are in agreement that pollution in all its forms are bad, then in real terms we're already on the same page aren't we? Would we need the debate you're after before we act?

Smudge doesn't want a debate. He's the Alt-Right Playbook in person.

https://youtu.be/wmVkJvieaOA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Smudge doesn't want a debate. He's the Alt-Right Playbook in person.

https://youtu.be/wmVkJvieaOA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing to debate man made climate change is a fantasy...