Covid-19

[CombatClaret]

So I presume you're going to shut up?

Talking of other countries and the lessons we must learn from them... when we end the NHS after this, what's your preferred new model? I mean, nobody else has this model and they (as you argue) are doing things better than us so, logically, it's time to bin the NHS.

No need to bin the system just the people making the poor decisions causing the system to fail, for example after you wargame a pandemic flu outbreak and find lack of PPE being raised you should do something about that before a real pandemic hits. We wargamed it 2016, found that exact issue and did F-All.
Same goes for testing which was never planned for, or the 228 pages of our pandemic preparedness plans which only has the word 'ventilators' mentioned once.

[evensteadiereddie]

Ouch.

[CombatClaret]

Luck of the draw with female leaders
I'd have every confidence in Mrs thatcher dealing with this crisis
Mrs May, not so much.

So all the countries with female leader who are doing very well right now just happened to all get lucky at the same time, phew!

[thatdberight]

I’m still missing something here - who are these people and what is it you think they want / calling for ?

I haven’t seen anyone asking for a full review - not even the left wing journalists.
I agree that some of the journalists ask stupid questions that they know can’t be answered right now but they are usually on specific areas such as lockdown or PPE...but journalists asking stupid questions is hardly a new phenomenon.

What tends to happen on this board on these kind of topics is that people ask a question and rather than get an answer people start to change the question and decide to answer that one instead. Then people point out that nobody asked that question in the first place or indeed disagrees with the answer that they have given to their own question that they have made up !

OK. What is it that's missing that you think we should have and then let's see if we're in agreement.

[Grumps]

So all the countries with female leader who are doing very well right now just happened to all get lucky at the same time, phew!

Looks like it, just like good and bad male leaders, there's the same with female leaders. Luck of the draw who's in charge when a crisis breaks.

[thatdberight]

No need to bin the system just the people making the poor decisions causing the system to fail, for example after you wargame a pandemic flu outbreak and find lack of PPE being raised you should do something about that before a real pandemic hits. We wargamed it 2016, found that exact issue and did F-All.
Same goes for testing which was never planned for, or the 228 pages of our pandemic preparedness plans which only has the word 'ventilators' mentioned once.

So, if everybody else is getting stuff right and we're not, why have they not got an NHS model?

[dsr]

Countries with females leaders seem to be handling this disproportionately better ...

Priti Patel is senior woman politician. Should she be appointed PM?

[RingoMcCartney]

Ignoring the rest of your waffle to avoid answering the question properly, I'd like to focus on this bit above.

Documenting the odd fact is going to lead to conjecture, is it not? Unless you've documented every single possible fact.

Secondly, why haven't you documented any facts about the UK making mistakes?

I answered your question directly. You didn't like the answer is your problem, not mine.


And you call it "waffle" its proof, were it needed that despite your post actually including the definition of conjecture, I provided for you. Not only do you not read the content of my posts, but you clearly dont read the content of your own!!!!



I havent posted any facts about the UK making mistakes as and when they do. There's plenty on here only too keen to do that for me.

At least now , you're conceding that I'm "documenting the odd fact"

And no longer making embarrassing claims of conjecture about posts that contain only facts and zero conjecture!

Baby steps ksr claret, baby steps......

[thatdberight]

What would you say is the average political view on here? Genuinely curious.

Among those who get involved in political threads (self-selecting subset obviously); left of centre. Left of the UK average.

[Grumps]

Priti Patel is senior woman politician. Should she be appointed PM?

Had we voted differently, it could have been Diane Abbott

[ksrclaret]

I havent posted any facts about the UK making mistakes as and when they do. There's plenty on here only too keen to do that for me.

In the words of a barrister who knows they have just won their case, "no further questions, your honor".

[thatdberight]

Had we voted differently, it could have been Diane Abbott

They're cut from the same mathematical cloth.

[tiger76]

Countries with females leaders seem to be handling this disproportionately better, early and decisive action with little need for d1ck waving and rah-rah public school 'take it on the chin' sentiment.

We wonder why a country with a physical chemistry expert is doing better than a opinion based newspaper columnist in charge

Shame! Labour didn't elect a female leader yet again isn't it,maybe they will one day.

Generally agree with your sentiment that the UK has been far too slow in many areas,but do you seriously think a Jeremy Corbyn led government would have performed any better in the circumstances,they would have faced all the same problems the current administration are trying to solve.

Now if we aren't fully prepared for a possible 2nd wave in a few months.then the government have no excuses whatsoever,they should have learned important lessons,and therefore should be more able to deal with logistical issues,PPE is one that keeps raising it's head despite the promises from Matt Hancock and others that it's being solved.

As stated further up the thread we need someone to crack the whip,and get things moving,actions not words are what matters now,if that takes a Beaverbrook type,whoever that is then so be it.

I also have to mention the mixed messaging coming out of Downing Street,even this week the lockdown rules have been tweaked yet again,there is too many grey areas,you can now travel for exercise,why?.if you need to exercise you can walk a short distance,essential employers haven't been clarified,my dad works in the whisky industry,and he can't possibly work from home,after closing the bottling plant for a week,they've already started reopening with a skeleton staff,which means some workers may have to travel on public transport to reach work,again increasing risk of spreading the virus.He's not returning to work until he's satisfied it's safe to do so,and although the employer's claiming they're adhering to social distancing guidelines,the unions aren't convinced,and are not happy the facility has resumed business,profit before people is my dad's mantra about the company,and i can assure you he's certainly not a firebrand socialist,however if you don't implicitly legislate what is and isn't essential,then some businesses will try and find loopholes,their loophole is that they come under food production,hence how they circumvent the guidance,and i'm fairly sure they're not the only ones.

[Rileybobs]

Among those who get involved in political threads (self-selecting subset obviously); left of centre. Left of the UK average.

Not sure I agree. There seems to be a fairly even spread to me.

[TVC15]

OK. What is it that's missing that you think we should have and then let's see if we're in agreement.

The bit that is or I’m missing are these people that you refer to who want a “full” review. I don’t know if they exist (but happy to be proved wrong) and I’m confused how that has ended up being the thing that you / others are now debating. Did anyone on this thread say that they thought there should be a full review undertaken now ?

I have already said that what should be happening is what is happening - scrutiny, challenge and criticism on specific areas. Which should be done in a constructive way in terms of the opposition parties and professional medical and other bodies.
We already know that this has been a powerful way of putting pressure on the government to either speed things up, change approach or in the case of things like the daily update to just respond by saying they agree it’s a good idea and just do it.

My guess is you agree on most of that but as said not really sure why the debate / question changed (i am sure why the debate changes for some posters but not including yourself in that)

[RingoMcCartney]

Right here we go!

A challenge for the weekend for all those keyboard Prime Ministers, wanting to judge the government's handling of the unprecedented global pandemic.


Name one person, just one person in the whole world, in any country you like , that right now, has all the available facts at their disposal, regarding the 2019 Covid 19 global pandemic. Who can therefore, draw objective conclusions and assessments and be in a strong position to name and shame who got it right and who got it wrong.

Just one! Stay safe and keep well. Enjoy both the research and all your weekends!

















(Given it's a CURRRENT and ongoing crisis with little or no real sign as to when, / if it's not going to rumble on for months/ years , end, I think you're going struggle to find anyone!! )

[thatdberight]

Hmmm, third party chips in when Ringo is asked a tricky question that's got him floundering and uses one of Ringo's favourite catchphrases.

LancasterClaret 9
Ringo 4 + 1 quoting LancasterClaret (he does seem to have taken rather a fancy to it after seeing LancasterClaret use it)
Cryssys 1
martin_p 1
Lord Beamish 1 (slightly reworded)
Hapag Lloyd 1
Putthewheeliebinsout 1

[thatdberight]

Not sure I agree. There seems to be a fairly even spread to me.

That's fine. You could be right. It's not scientific. It's just my impression. I also believe we have a good spread - just the weightings.

[RingoMcCartney]

In the words of a barrister who knows they have just won their case, "no further questions, your honor".

Looking at the way you steamed in with embarrassing claims of "conjecture" in a post that by your own admission was " documenting the odd fact" and contained absolutely zero conjecture.

You couldn't win a raffle!

[thatdberight]

The bit that is or I’m missing are these people that you refer to who want a “full” review. I don’t know if they exist (but happy to be proved wrong) and I’m confused how that has ended up being the thing that you / others are now debating. Did anyone on this thread say that they thought there should be a full review undertaken now ?

I have already said that what should be happening is what is happening - scrutiny, challenge and criticism on specific areas. Which should be done in a constructive way in terms of the opposition parties and professional medical and other bodies.
We already know that this has been a powerful way of putting pressure on the government to either speed things up, change approach or in the case of things like the daily update to just respond by saying they agree it’s a good idea and just do it.

My guess is you agree on most of that but as said not really sure why the debate / question changed (i am sure why the debate changes for some posters but not including yourself in that)

I'll leave it at that then. Yes, we're in pretty good agreement. There are polarising voices on both sides best ignored.

[ksrclaret]

Looking at the way you steamed in with embarrassing claims of "conjecture" in a post that by your own admission was " documenting the odd fact" and contained absolutely zero conjecture.

You couldn't win a raffle!

Careful now. I gave you ample opportunity to make the case for your defence. That you failed is not my problem.

Now please be quiet or you’ll be in contempt of court.

[Rileybobs]

That's fine. You could be right. It's not scientific. It's just my impression. I also believe we have a good spread - just the weightings.

I think it’s easier to notice those on the other side of the fence, so to speak, as they are the ones we probably engage in conversation more. There may be slightly more left of centre views on here but I wouldn’t say it’s a noticeable majority if so.

[Hapag Lloyd]

This isn't one for you, Hapag. Move along now, there's a good lad.

Would you be good enough to point me in the direction of a thread that I’m allowed to post on, there’s a good lad.

[RingoMcCartney]

Careful now. I gave you ample opportunity to make the case for your defence. That you failed is not my problem.

Now please be quiet or you’ll be in contempt of court.

And I gave you ample opportunity to make a laughing stock of yourself and boy, did you take it!

On 11 March a pandemic was declared by the WHO. By this time, 114 countries had reported cases.

There is no premature opinion in that post. Just facts. I simply posted stone cold facts. No opinion whatsoever.

But remember your reply to the above?! -

This is what you said yesterday.

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:23 am

We are slap bang in the middle of this crisis. When it's over and only when it's over, will it be the time to assess how well the country, the government, the opposition the NHS, Public Health England, the media and all stakeholders in this crisis have performed. Good , bad or indifferent. Attempting to make a judgement and forming an opinion right now, is far too premature. There could easily be 2nd, 3rd and 4th waves of this hideous evil virus to contend with

People should wait till it's over.

conjecture
/kənˈdʒɛktʃə/

Learn to pronounce
See definitions in:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

Dear, dear, dear. Credibility = zero.

Now this not only shows you're inability to differentiate between straight forward facts, from conjecture. It also proves that, despite your post actually including the definition of conjecture, I provided for you. Not only do you not read the content of my posts, but you clearly dont read the content of your own!!!!



Not content with shooting yourself in one foot. Well no, you just had to go ahead and shoot yourself in the other foot, by actually conceding it was fact!

Documenting the odd fact.

Yep! Boy did you achieve it!

Good effort ksr claret!

[CombatClaret]

Now if we aren't fully prepared for a possible 2nd wave in a few months.then the government have no excuses whatsoever,they should have learned important lessons.

The first, wave was in China, the second wave was in Italy etc etc.
The idea we had to shoot ourselves in leg to learn the lessons after watching & observing half a dozen other people shoot themselves in the leg first is absurd.

[TVC15]

Another daft question from our resident Robin Day.

Another question that literally nobody on this board is asking or pretending they can answer.

Stay safe etc etc

[ksrclaret]

Ringo McCartney,

You have been founded guilty of posting hypocritical garbage and shameless political point scoring on uptheclarets.

I don’t need to tell you the seriousness of this, since you’ve been selectively calling some of it out in recent weeks.

You are sentenced to never post a political opinion on this board until the Covid-19 crisis is over. Further, you must not post political facts, because this will lead to conjecture because every single fact is not currently available.

Take him down.

[thatdberight]

The first, wave was in China, the second wave was in Italy etc etc.
The idea we had to shoot ourselves in leg to learn the lessons after watching & observing half a dozen other people shoot themselves in the leg first is absurd.

We haven't seen any country full emerge from lockdown. Not that this stops you knowing exactly what to do, or more importantly why those that actually are responsible for things are doing it wrong.

[tiger76]

I'll leave it at that then. Yes, we're in pretty good agreement. There are polarising voices on both sides best ignored.

And these polarising voices are precisely why it's hard to have a rational debate on this and other issues,either you'll have some posters singing the government's praises from the rooftops,or conversely you'll have the opposing view that they are totally incompetent,as usual in these instances the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

[Paul Waine]

Not all countries will envy ours just some other countries such as the USA .

Given that some suggest that covid-19 outcomes in UK will be the "worst in Europe" don't you think it would be a good idea to take a look at how the other European countries organise their health care?

[tiger76]

Daily update: UK government's latest figures on virus deaths
A total of 15,464 people hospitalised in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus have died as of 17:00 BST on Friday, the Department of Health and Social Care has said.

That's an increase of 888 on the previous 24 hours.

As of 09:00 BST on Saturday, 460,437 tests have concluded, with 21,389 tests on 17 April.

A total of 357,023 people have been tested,114,217 of whom tested positive.

So deaths still high but stabilising at least in hospitals,testing increasing but still way short of the 100,000 per day the government targeted by the end of April.

[thatdberight]

Given that some suggest that covid-19 outcomes in UK will be the "worst in Europe" don't you think it would be a good idea to take a look at how the other European countries organise their health care?

You're in danger of talking heresy about the "envy of the world".

Why these nations (which we keep being told do stuff better than us) don't act on their envy and set their own version up remains a mystery.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Those tests are going to have to “ramp up” to hit the 100,000 target by the end of the month.

[Paul Waine]

You're in danger of talking heresy about the "envy of the world".

Why these nations (which we keep being told do stuff better than us) don't act on their envy and set their own version up remains a mystery.

I've seen quite a lot of doctors and nurses in the NHS over the past few years. They've looked after my health well. Just been watching Brighton v Burnley from 4 years back - my first game 6 weeks after a heart attack. But, I've also seen a lot where "the NHS" lets the doctors and nurses - and the patients down.

I've also experienced health care system in Netherlands - I lived there 1992-93. And, a few weeks back I had a skiing fall and experienced Austrian health care system. Their doctors and nurses are just as good - and it seems the records of their health care outcomes are better than the NHS.

So, I'm all for taking a look at what the differences are, seeing what we can learn from them - and maybe improve on health care outcomes in the UK.

[bfcjg]

Given that some suggest that covid-19 outcomes in UK will be the "worst in Europe" don't you think it would be a good idea to take a look at how the other European countries organise their health care?

No, we should look at the timing of lockdown, the density of our population centres, the age of our population and other factors such as pollution levels/general health. To suggest that our NHS isnt as good as other European health services do our frontline staff a diservice .

[thatdberight]

To suggest that our NHS isnt as good as other European health services do our frontline staff a diservice .

That's the attitude that causes the problem where the NHS is sacred.

The people aren't the organisation. To look carefully at the structure isn't to make any comment on the individuals working in it.

[Lowbankclaret]

To be honest your best estimate doesn't count for **** all because that's the sum of what you know that anybody else doesn't and how reliable you are.

Might count for Sh1t, but it will be about right.

[Lowbankclaret]

Have I missed something, Lowbank?

"We have already bust 20,000....?"

Last I heard earlier today was that UK deaths (all regrettable) are somewhere around 14,500...

When corrected by the office for national statistics, you will find in about 20 days it’s was over 20,000.

[Taffy on the wing]

These days older people typically live in care homes for relatively short periods of time - average length of stay is just 18 -24 months and many only a few months So they are places where people are sadly at the end of their life - they often have comorbidities including respiratory conditions such as COPD. 'Cant fckin breathe' does not mean they have had coronavirus - many people have died in care homes due to respiratory failure prior to coronavirus and the same applies to some people not infected during this pandemic.

Yes!..... I’m sure, but DSR was hair splitting, and I was being facetious, trying to draw attention to it.
Sorry for any misunderstanding..... I’m sick and tired of people blindly excusing this Government’s lack of compassion and incompetence!

[Taffy on the wing]

About 15yrs ago I saw a lad get hit by a bus, I was at his side within seconds and he wasn't breathing. Has this virus been around longer than we think then?

Stupid statement........and you know it!

[Grumps]

Stupid statement........and you know it!

Not as stupid as the comment he was replying to!!

[Devils_Advocate]

Interested to see the detail of this article if anyone has subscription to the Sunday Times and can share some of the content without copyright infringement

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -hq3b9tlgh

It comes from a centrist factual newspaper and seems to suggests that Johnson and his govt took a very blase approach to the crisis in Feb which may have cost lives and left us unprepared around some of the key issues

Ive just taken their summary and so would be good to see their fuller views and see it discussed sensibly like adults

[thatdberight]

Interested to see the detail of this article if anyone has subscription to the Sunday Times and can share some of the content without copyright infringement

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -hq3b9tlgh

It comes from a centrist factual newspaper and seems to suggests that Johnson and his govt took a very blase approach to the crisis in Feb which may have cost lives and left us unprepared around some of the key issues

Ive just taken their summary and so would be good to see their fuller views and see it discussed sensibly like adults

There are clips on Twitter. It is damning criticism (in the 'extremely critical' sense of that word).

[Devils_Advocate]

There are clips on Twitter. It is damning criticism.

Thats what Ive seen but the Twitter clips are intended to be a bit sensational and enticing. Would prefer to see the fuller article and see the quality of the sources and where opinion diverges from the facts

[dsr]

To suggest that our NHS isnt as good as other European health services do our frontline staff a diservice .

No matter how good the frontline staff, management can still cock things up.

[dsr]

Yes!..... I’m sure, but DSR was hair splitting, and I was being facetious, trying to draw attention to it.
Sorry for any misunderstanding..... I’m sick and tired of people blindly excusing this Government’s lack of compassion and incompetence!

Not really hair splitting. If doctors are told that they must always put coronavirus on the death certificiate if it is suspected that it might have been present, then coronavirus cases will certainly be overstated. If doctors are allowed to make their own judgements, then some will put too many, some will put too few, and there is at least a chance that the balance may be about right.

[TVC15]

https://apple.news/AmW-6p3aHRcOrDMiGZR3kig

[Devils_Advocate]

Not really hair splitting. If doctors are told that they must always put coronavirus on the death certificiate if it is suspected that it might have been present, then coronavirus cases will certainly be overstated. If doctors are allowed to make their own judgements, then some will put too many, some will put too few, and there is at least a chance that the balance may be about right.

Whether its right or wrong the point of the original article is that Doctors are not being allowed to make their own judgement but are being steered to leave out coronavirus from the death report

In essence you sound to be supporting Taffy's point but from a different angle. If you are correct in saying doctors should not be instructed to put CV on the death certificate then by simple logic they should not be instructed not to put CV on the death certificate

[Devils_Advocate]

https://apple.news/AmW-6p3aHRcOrDMiGZR3kig

This is the link I mentioned a few posts above but it is fire-walled. If you have full access and could share it would be much appreciated thanks

[JohnDearyMe]

Thanks for the link DA, depressing reading. This government are not going to come out of this well. To think we knew what was coming but didn't prepare properly...