Muric

[Tribesmen]

Look you have to ask if the background staff who train the lad and see this then if you cant catch then punch , simple really .

[Anonymous Claret]

I can't believe the stick Muric is receiving on here from some posters. If he was a better shot stopper and commanded his area a little better he would be called Ederson and worth £50 million plus. He is a young keeper who is learning his trade in a very difficult league. FWIW I think he has improved since the start of the season like the whole team has improved. I am sure Kompany and co along with Muric know the areas he needs to improve. For Muric and a lot of this team I view this season as the equivalent to a first year apprenticeship. Give him time.

[Rileybobs]

No, I’m using StatsBomb (partnered with several EFL clubs including Hull), they recently asked ‘Who have been the best shot stoppers?’

Again Riley, you challenge my use of stats by implying I’m being selective, and suggest there’s stats which show he’s the worst, please find it and show me as I’m very much open minded.

I’m just not a fan of people countering any opinion with a questionable statistic. Sid has done it above and provided statistics which are totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Your stats show that Muric is the ‘best shot stopper in the league’. Do you think he is?

I don’t watch many Championship games other than ours, so I wouldn’t know where he ranks. But my argument is that shot stopping is a major weakness of his. That weakness is masked in this league because we’re too good for the opposition who barely get a chance. I’d love to think we would be as dominant in the Premier League, but the reality is that we won’t.

This isn’t to say that Muric isn’t fit for purpose this season, because he obviously is. But I don’t think Kompany will be naive enough to think that he is strong enough to keep us in the Premier League and I think a new goalkeeper will be a big priority in the summer.

[DCWat]

You credit his distribution but at the same time struggle to understand that very attribute is part of the reason we are able to dominate games so much. The positions he takes up when we are in possession, the calmness on the ball no matter the situation, the ability to play long with accuracy or clip mid length balls to the wings, the entire team has full confidence in playing it back to him if they dont have a ball on forwards. Put Hennessey in net and you don’t see Burnley dominate games in the way that we are doing. I know people won’t understand that concept but I’ll keep trying to help.

No, I don’t struggle to understand what this particular attribute brings to the team. I think you struggle to understand that my issue isn’t with the positives that he brings to the team, it’s the key elements of the role of goalkeeper (the name is on the tin) that I’m less convinced by.

[helmclaret]

You talk like Kompany doesn’t know what Muric needs to improve on

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Why do you keep going on about a stick? I don’t have a stick.

You’ve ignored my whole post. You are talking about the number of crosses into our box and how many of them he collects. I’m talking about the number of crosses he attempts to collect and fails to, which is very high. Your stats are meaningless.

You've yet to show me how many he attempts to claim, so until you post some stats you're just blowing hot air whilst waving your stick around.

Come back to me when you've got something useful to say

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I’m just not a fan of people countering any opinion with a questionable statistic. Sid has done it above and provided statistics which are totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Your stats show that Muric is the ‘best shot stopper in the league’. Do you think he is?

I don’t watch many Championship games other than ours, so I wouldn’t know where he ranks. But my argument is that shot stopping is a major weakness of his. That weakness is masked in this league because we’re too good for the opposition who barely get a chance. I’d love to think we would be as dominant in the Premier League, but the reality is that we won’t.

This isn’t to say that Muric isn’t fit for purpose this season, because he obviously is. But I don’t think Kompany will be naive enough to think that he is strong enough to keep us in the Premier League and I think a new goalkeeper will be a big priority in the summer.

So you want to ignore stats/facts and go with an individual's opinion?

[Steve1956]

Who was the other keeper we tried to sign and it fell through?

[helmclaret]

I remember the season we got promoted to the championship and people giving Crichton stick all season - think he had about 20 clean sheets

[helmclaret]

Who was the other keeper we tried to sign and it fell through?

Allison

[Steve1956]

Allison

Yawn.

[Hapag Lloyd]

Who was the other keeper we tried to sign and it fell through?

Bart Verbruggen, a young keeper Kompany had worked with at Anderlecht

[Steve1956]

Bart Verbruggen, a young keeper Kompany had worked with at Anderlecht

Thank you

[RVclaret]

I’m just not a fan of people countering any opinion with a questionable statistic. Sid has done it above and provided statistics which are totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Your stats show that Muric is the ‘best shot stopper in the league’. Do you think he is?

I don’t watch many Championship games other than ours, so I wouldn’t know where he ranks. But my argument is that shot stopping is a major weakness of his. That weakness is masked in this league because we’re too good for the opposition who barely get a chance. I’d love to think we would be as dominant in the Premier League, but the reality is that we won’t.

This isn’t to say that Muric isn’t fit for purpose this season, because he obviously is. But I don’t think Kompany will be naive enough to think that he is strong enough to keep us in the Premier League and I think a new goalkeeper will be a big priority in the summer.

Stats, if used correctly, are useful to validate / provide strength to an opinion. Obviously, everyone can have an opinion, no problem, but it's very easy to hide behind. I feel I am quite fair when using stats and the ones I've provided are ones that professionals at football clubs use.

I think Muric is a decent shot stopper, I don't know about best in the league as I don't watch every match, this is where the stats that I posted are handy. He's yet to make an error leading to a goal with a shot, a few that some may argue he 'could have done better with', but none like Steffen yesterday, or spilling a shot (like Pope v Germany recently).

So no, I don't think that shot stopping is a major weakness at all, his main weakness, for me, is his commanding of the box - as was shown yesterday and against Sheffield United. He's got the tools to improve on this (size mainly) so lets see how it develops, if at all, over the second half of the season.

[RVclaret]

No, I don’t struggle to understand what this particular attribute brings to the team. I think you struggle to understand that my issue isn’t with the positives that he brings to the team, it’s the key elements of the role of goalkeeper (the name is on the tin) that I’m less convinced by.

But the point is, a key element of the role of the goalkeeper in this system right now, is the ball playing ability. He's absolutely levels ahead of any other keeper in this league in this area. Your 'name on the tin' comment is rather ancient.

[NewClaret]

I’m just not a fan of people countering any opinion with a questionable statistic. Sid has done it above and provided statistics which are totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Your stats show that Muric is the ‘best shot stopper in the league’. Do you think he is?

I don’t watch many Championship games other than ours, so I wouldn’t know where he ranks. But my argument is that shot stopping is a major weakness of his. That weakness is masked in this league because we’re too good for the opposition who barely get a chance. I’d love to think we would be as dominant in the Premier League, but the reality is that we won’t.

This isn’t to say that Muric isn’t fit for purpose this season, because he obviously is. But I don’t think Kompany will be naive enough to think that he is strong enough to keep us in the Premier League and I think a new goalkeeper will be a big priority in the summer.

I would say his shot stopping is a strength along with kicking. It’s commanding the and his positioning (sometimes) which are weaknesses.

Until the last ten minutes yesterday I thought he’d been much better commanding his area since the break, although the pen came from Browny keeping the ball in (so two mistakes). I’ll be disappointed if our keeping coaches can’t significantly improve that area of his game over the next season or two.

But will be very shocked if we get another #1 in if we get promoted.

[taio]

So you want to ignore stats/facts and go with an individual's opinion?

Stats certainly have a place. But they need to be relevant and meaningful to the point being made and ideally support a viewpoint based on what people have witnessed first-hand. I think it's fairly obvious to many the areas where Muric needs to and has time to improve. I'm more interested, for example, in the individual player ratings on here than say those based on an algorithm like on Whoscored, albeit I still find those interesting.

[what_no_pies]

Like with all our young players there are areas of his game that he can improve on. An obvious weakness of our team this season has been defending crosses into our box. The defenders aren't covering themselves in glory in this department either.

Muric brings so much to the party with his distribution but it would be remiss of us not to acknowlege his weaknesses. I'm sure Kompany and his coaching staff are confronting this.

By all means discuss all of our players weaknesses, but not at the expense of giving them our full support. Some of the audible grumblings aimed at Muric early in the season clearly affected him and the other players so it's apparant our support has room for improvement too.

Whilst you're pointing a finger at somebody note where your other three fingers are pointing,

[NewClaret]

Will also add that I’ve watched very little of the WC in general but kept an eye on highlights/goals and some of the keeping standards have been well below Muric’s level. We’re very lucky to have him!

[Nori1958]

I would say his shot stopping is a strength along with kicking. It’s commanding the and his positioning (sometimes) which are weaknesses.

Until the last ten minutes yesterday I thought he’d been much better commanding his area since the break, although the pen came from Browny keeping the ball in (so two mistakes). I’ll be disappointed if our keeping coaches can’t significantly improve that area of his game over the next season or two.

But will be very shocked if we get another #1 in if we get promoted.

You can bring back this post if iam proved wrong
If we get promoted, Muric would probably be the worst performing goalkeeper in that league, whichever set of stats people rely on.

[boatshed bill]

Look you have to ask if the background staff who train the lad and see this then if you cant catch then punch , simple really .

Just read through the thread. This is the easiest one with which to make one simple point.
It's obvious that AM needs to work on how he deals with crosses, I don't think anyone would deny that.
But please remember that if crosses were little more than catching practice for the keeper why do teams persist with high crosses as a tactic?

[Spijed]

Just read through the thread. This is the easiest one with which to make one simple point.
It's obvious that AM needs to work on how he deals with crosses, I don't think anyone would deny that.
But please remember that if crosses were little more than catching practice for the keeper why do teams persist with high crosses as a tactic?

Tbf, most players at Championship level aren't capable of putting in high quality crosses so high crosses are probably all they are capable of.

[Rileybobs]

You've yet to show me how many he attempts to claim, so until you post some stats you're just blowing hot air whilst waving your stick around.

Come back to me when you've got something useful to say

I don’t want to go looking for stats, I enjoy watching football, not comparing statistics. When I watch Muric I see him fail to collect a high percentage of the crosses that he attempts to collect. I don’t need to find statistics to back up what I can observe.

Your obsession with sticks is a little odd, and your rude, dismissive tone is just unnecessary and seems to be your default position when someone disagrees with you.

[Steve1956]

Are Stats worth the paper they are written on regarding football?
Never ever taken notice of them myself.

[boatshed bill]

Tbf, most players at Championship level aren't capable of putting in high quality crosses so high crosses are probably all they are capable of.

That may be true to some extent, but it doesn't alter the point I am making.
They even put crosses in at "park" level football

[SimonSays]

He's fantastic as a package isn't he? Some of the passes played out are sublime. Feel so lucky to have him and this style of play at Burnley.

[helmclaret]

A lot of prem keepers struggle with high balls. They have a lot more to their game these days than kicking it long out of their hands and catching crosses.

Like someone said if he was the full package he would be worth £50m!

[NewClaret]

You can bring back this post if iam proved wrong
If we get promoted, Muric would probably be the worst performing goalkeeper in that league, whichever set of stats people rely on.

Well I just hope we get promoted to find out!

Worth noting that Stefan is City’s other keeper and he looked far dodgier than Muric yesterday. Oh, and that Heaton and Pope were playing at far lower levels at 23.

[basil6345789]

I was very sceptical at first but I feel he's continually improving, along with the back four - coincidence?

[NewClaret]

A lot of prem keepers struggle with high balls. They have a lot more to their game these days than kicking it long out of their hands and catching crosses.

Like someone said if he was the full package he would be worth £50m!

He has the potential to be worth that much because he is SO good with his feet. Get the other aspects right, in the next few years whilst he’s still very young, and we have a massive prospect on our hands.

[Newty]

Are Stats worth the paper they are written on regarding football?
Never ever taken notice of them myself.

Oh that explains a lot then. Thought you were just on the wind up.

[Spijed]

A lot of prem keepers struggle with high balls. They have a lot more to their game these days than kicking it long out of their hands and catching crosses.

Like someone said if he was the full package he would be worth £50m!

Obviously Newcastle don't seem to bother with too much passing out from the back and it hasn't done them too much harm so far this season.

[Nori1958]

Well I just hope we get promoted to find out!

Worth noting that Stefan is City’s other keeper and he looked far dodgier than Muric yesterday. Oh, and that Heaton and Pope were playing at far lower levels at 23.

I hope we do..... And buy another keeper

None of those points are relevant to what Muric is doing now, other than maybe City don't have 100% success rate at spotting good keepers

[Rileybobs]

Stats, if used correctly, are useful to validate / provide strength to an opinion. Obviously, everyone can have an opinion, no problem, but it's very easy to hide behind. I feel I am quite fair when using stats and the ones I've provided are ones that professionals at football clubs use.

I think Muric is a decent shot stopper, I don't know about best in the league as I don't watch every match, this is where the stats that I posted are handy. He's yet to make an error leading to a goal with a shot, a few that some may argue he 'could have done better with', but none like Steffen yesterday, or spilling a shot (like Pope v Germany recently).

So no, I don't think that shot stopping is a major weakness at all, his main weakness, for me, is his commanding of the box - as was shown yesterday and against Sheffield United. He's got the tools to improve on this (size mainly) so lets see how it develops, if at all, over the second half of the season.

Of course statistics are hugely important, the game has moved on so much and the way football clubs interpret and use statistics can give them a big advantage over their competitors. But the author of the piece you quoted even said that that he didn’t know whether this particular statistic would show whether different keepers have different strengths and weaknesses, yet you’re using it in an attempt to show Muric is the best shot stopper in the league, which I think is very questionable having seen him play over 20 times.

Again, using a statistic such as ‘errors leading to goals’ is fine to demonstrate that a goalkeeper doesn’t make calamitous howlers that lead to goals (it doesn’t show that they don’t make calamitous howlers by the way, just that they are not punished). But it doesn’t account for goals like the one we saw yesterday which should have been a completely routine save. That was an error leading to a goal.

And whilst stats such as XG are useful to give an overall picture, in that isolated situation I would trust what my own eyes tell me about the difficulty of the save above an algorithm.

[Steve1956]

Oh that explains a lot then. Thought you were just on the wind up.

Oh right....there's me thinking football was a game played in a meadow by 22 blokes kicking a bag of wind about,you learn something new every day on here football is played on a computer in a big building..thanks I'm a happy man today

[Devils_Advocate]

Obviously Newcastle don't seem to bother with too much passing out from the back and it hasn't done them too much harm so far this season.

But they've got a top class manager who knows how to organise a defence

[boatshed bill]

Ironic, is it not?
Under SD we made crossing putting goalkeepers under pressure into one of our main weapons, now crosses are fodder for any decent goalkeeper??

[Spijed]

But they've got a top class manager who knows how to organise a defence

And fair play to him as it's now working. But it shows that you can sill have a goal keeper who hoofs the ball out of defence at every opportunity and be successful (and entertaining)

[Devils_Advocate]

It shows most of what you spout on topics like this is nonsense but have a merry Xmas Spiked and hope for many disagreements in the new year

[1fatclaret]

Crosses into our box this season - 253
Crosses he's caught - 19/7.5%

The keeper who's faced the most crosses is Woodman at Preston, 388 crosses, 21 caught/5.4%

The highest catch rate is Patterson at Sunderland
Crosses - 377
Caught - 35/9.3%


Championship keepers aren't catching many crosses but you're determine to use this stick to bash Muric with

That’s a poor stat though as it doesn’t give any indication as to where in the box those crosses were or how many were attempted to be caught by the ‘keeper.

The two he “attempted” yesterday were very simple for that level of ‘keeper and they both should have been caught.

His “dive” for their goal was also very poor.

[boatshed bill]

His “dive” for their goal was also very poor.

It really did look as though he left it thinking it was going wide

[NewClaret]

I hope we do..... And buy another keeper

None of those points are relevant to what Muric is doing now, other than maybe City don't have 100% success rate at spotting good keepers

The City point was more that good keepers don’t grow on trees. They’re not easy to come by and I think the WC has proved that.

The other is relevant in that two of the best keepers in this clubs history were nowhere near capable of playing at the level he is doing currently at his aged. They improved, as he will do.

[Luppy]

One of the biggest problems Muric has is following in the footsteps of Heaton and Pope - we have been blessed for the best part of a decade.

Their command of the box was outstanding, whereas it’s Muric’s big weakness. Let’s be right - a keeper with 70 plus England caps to his name looked poor in comparison to those two.

That said, I think Muric has improved since the start of the season

[boyyanno]

No, quite the opposite of that. Post shot xG is one of the method analysts will look at. For an in depth explanation check out this article:

https://statsbomb.com/articles/soccer/a ... ted-goals/

It’s quite interesting, essentially it measures the quality of shot faced and places a probability on whether that shot should go in.

Muric is currently ranking as the top performing keeper in the Champ using this metric.

There are severel huge flaws with this data but they are open about one of them- they do not take the goalkeepers position into account. According to this data if someone shot at the near post it wouldn't matter if the keeper was directly infront of it or on the half way line, the stat would be the same. Impossible to judge a keeper on such flawed data imo.

[boatshed bill]

One of the biggest problems Muric has is following in the footsteps of Heaton and Pope - we have been blessed for the best part of a decade.

Their command of the box was outstanding, whereas it’s Muric’s big weakness. Let’s be right - a keeper with 70 plus England caps to his name looked poor in comparison to those two.

That said, I think Muric has improved since the start of the season

Whilst totally agreeing with you I think the comparison in the way we defend now as opposed to the previous (SD) seasons is a huge factor.

[Nori1958]

The City point was more that good keepers don’t grow on trees. They’re not easy to come by and I think the WC has proved that.

The other is relevant in that two of the best keepers in this clubs history were nowhere near capable of playing at the level he is doing currently at his aged. They improved, as he will do.

Not sure we can say how good Heaton or Pope were at his age, as we hadn't even heard of them, never mind seen them play, both might have been far better than Muric at claiming crosses, and not making howlers like he's done in the last two games, perhaps they weren't as good at passing?

[taio]

The City point was more that good keepers don’t grow on trees. They’re not easy to come by and I think the WC has proved that.

The other is relevant in that two of the best keepers in this clubs history were nowhere near capable of playing at the level he is doing currently at his aged. They improved, as he will do.

How have you possibly concluded that they were nowhere near capable of playing at that level?

[Darnhill Claret]

As Boatshed Bill has suggested, he may have made a misjudgment that the goal shot he conceded yesterday was going wide. A small number of keepers have shown extreme confidence in this area previously. I’m sure Muric will ‘be trained’ to improve this part of his game or treat all goal attempts with the respect they deserve.
Muric has and continues to improve his all round game. I laugh when I read things like, ‘ he had very little to do’. Muric probably has a higher number of touches than some strikers in some games. Muric spreads confidence around the team. All players make errors during a game. The centre backs and keeper have improved as a unit game on game. I dislike all opposition keepers for 90+ minutes every game, but Steffen wasn’t as bad as some on here have made out. The first goal was a well hit shot through a crowded area. The second was a far post curler delivered to perfection with the knowledge that a colleague might get a touch or t might creep in at the far post. A deliberate tactic, hard to defend when delivered perfectly. The third a deflected own goal with little reaction time to prevent it going in.
Also to ignore the regular errors that Ederson, Allison and Pope make that cost goals weakens arguments against the likes of other keepers. The are the best but still make significant errors (fewer admittedly) so shouldn’t be held up as perfect.
Muric has great potential.
At the start of the season or early into it, the question was asked how would our team or squad manage in the premier league. I now believe that with whatever additions we make to the squad we will fare in similar vein as Fulham have so far this season.
If Muric is still our number 1 keeper next season he will not be bottom of any statistical league of keepers.
All our players are showing improvement. Muric, Beyer and Harwood-Bellis allneed to improve their aerial defending and I believe they all will. Our full-backs too.

[RVclaret]

There are severel huge flaws with this data but they are open about one of them- they do not take the goalkeepers position into account. According to this data if someone shot at the near post it wouldn't matter if the keeper was directly infront of it or on the half way line, the stat would be the same. Impossible to judge a keeper on such flawed data imo.

Fair, though there are always 'flaws' with most data, and that's why it's not to be used on its own. I think their assumption that keepers are generally in the centre of their goal is fine. The rest of the model makes sense and that's why it's used by professionals.

[NewClaret]

How have you possibly concluded that they were nowhere near capable of playing at that level?

Because they weren’t playing at that level? If they were they’d have been doing it.

My point is here that Muric is playing in a top of the league Championship side, neither Pope nor Heaton were doing the same at his age. They improved immensely throughout their 20’s and you’d expect Muric to do the same.