Newcastle bid £15m for Trafford

[123EasyasBFC]

You do realise that Muric wasn’t in the championship team of the year?

That was Ben Wilson

https://www.efl.com/news/2023/april/efl ... -revealed/

If I’m being honest I hope neither are at the club. They are too problematic for the fan base.

Half of the fans either hate Trafford or Muric

Yes he was the one voted for by players - https://www.thepfa.com/news/2023/8/29/p ... -year-2023

[123EasyasBFC]

Jesus, don’t you get tired of hating Trafford? Did he steal your missus or something? You never miss a beat with criticising him.

There’s no hatred at all there’s making a point of who I think is a better keeper, a number of times I have said it’s not actually Traffords fault, its kompanys fault.

But when it comes to who is the better keeper for us, muric is hands down the better keeper

[The Shire Claret]

Trafford will come good but we have been relegated so we can no longer afford to keep him and will now most likely break even on a keeper that could be worth much much more in future.

It's a shame it went how it did - I wish Muric got his chance and things would have been a lot different between Traff and the fans... non of it his fault

Muric will be our number 1 hopefully and I still think we could make a killing on him in a season or two

[Jamesy]

Do you mean “the tired old Trafford v Muric debate” that you’ve bored the tits off everyone on since the start of last season.

Who rattled your cage?

[Jamesy]

But it wasn't 'a few morons' was it? It was most definitely audible and chanted by a good chunk. Definitely morons though.

I don’t know where you sit on the Turf? I sit near half way line in Bob Lord stand and I I said in previous posts I heard a bit of it coming from CFS in his last game or so but it didn’t sound like a good chunk. If you were in the middle of it or close to it then I will believe what you are stating.
I’m not trying to defend what happened or as one poster said doing somersaults or gymnastics, I am just commenting on what I heard.
Again, I believe the vast majority of our support home and away ( and I went to the away games) were quite patient and reasonable towards Trafford, considering Kompany left him in the firing line for far too long.
I said in an earlier post that Newcastle wouldn’t be considering buying him if he didn’t have the ability. If they do what Kompany didnt do and coach him and nurture him properly he could turn out to be a top notch keeper. I truly hope he does.

[golden days]

I don’t know where you sit on the Turf? I sit near half way line in Bob Lord stand and I I said in previous posts I heard a bit of it coming from CFS in his last game or so but it didn’t sound like a good chunk. If you were in the middle of it or close to it then I will believe what you are stating.
I’m not trying to defend what happened or as one poster said doing somersaults or gymnastics, I am just commenting on what I heard.
Again, I believe the vast majority of our support home and away ( and I went to the away games) were quite patient and reasonable towards Trafford, considering Kompany left him in the firing line for far too long.
I said in an earlier post that Newcastle wouldn’t be considering buying him if he didn’t have the ability. If they do what Kompany didnt do and coach him and nurture him properly he could turn out to be a top notch keeper. I truly hope he does.

There was a reason to be patient... He wasn't as bad as some would make out
Someone not a million miles away from you called him an effing cretin, but got put in his place pretty quick, other than that I heard nothing

[Newcastleclaret93]

Yes he was the one voted for by players - https://www.thepfa.com/news/2023/8/29/p ... -year-2023

That’s not the championship team of the season.

That’s the PFa team of the season.

[Newcastleclaret93]

For the god knows how many times - PFA - which is the one that matters (as voted by fellow Champ players).

It doesn’t matter 123 he said he was in the championship team of the season.

That is factually incorrect. He wasn’t in it. He was in the PFA team of the season.

[123EasyasBFC]

That’s not the championship team of the season.

That’s the PFa team of the season.

PFA championship team of the season, but you can split hairs if you want.

[CoolClaret]

It doesn’t matter 123 he said he was in the championship team of the season.

That is factually incorrect. He wasn’t in it. He was in the PFA team of the season.

[Andreshotboots]

Quite ironic that huge amounts of people slagging the lad off are miffed at the potential fee we'll get for him.

This lad was hung out to dry by Kompany, and I've no doubts at all he'll be a top class keeper for a "big" club..

[123EasyasBFC]

Newcastle has a serious issue when being questioned, can’t believe an argument is trying to be made that it was incorrect when it literally says ‘PFA championship team of the season’

[Newcastleclaret93]

PFA championship team of the season, but you can split hairs if you want.

Well there is a difference.

The EFL team of the season is the official award. It’s where the player of the season gets the leagues official award. The keepers gets the golden glove and the striker gets the golden boot.

The PFA is a nice award but it’s not as prestigious

[123EasyasBFC]

Well there is a difference.

The EFL team of the season is the official award. It’s where the player of the season gets the leagues official award. The keepers gets the golden glove and the striker gets the golden boot.

The PFA is a nice award but it’s not as prestigious

Hahaha the PFA is not prestigious when it’s voted for by the players. You are really clutching. So the player winning the PFA player of the year at a big dinner full of players isn’t prestigious.

Honestly how do you manage to outdo yourself day in day out

[Newcastleclaret93]

Hahaha the PFA is not prestigious when it’s voted for by the players. You are really clutching. So the player winning the PFA player of the year at a big dinner full of players isn’t prestigious.

Honestly how do you manage to outdo yourself day in day out

Did I say it wasn’t prestigious?

Stop misquoting what I’m saying.

The EFL award is more prestigious. Muric didn’t win the golden gloves and also didn’t get in the official team of the season. They are just facts. You don’t need to get all mad about it

[Goliath]

In hindsight putting him in for a keeper who has genuinely world class distribution and had just spent a season basically showing off it at will under no pressure whilst we steamrollered the league was a very difficult position to be in.

We'd become so use to Muric's confidence on the ball that anyone coming in for him was going to look like a bit of a donkey in comparison. Imagine we'd signed Nick Pope after Muric, he'd have been absolutely slated.

The problem was Trafford wasn't strong enough to make up for it with his goalkeeping, probably due to his age and the pressure then mounted. If he goes to a club that doesn't have a big cult hero in goal then it would be a lot easier to settle in.

It's similar to when a number of keepers tried and failed to replace Brian Jensen because when they made a few mistakes everyone started chanting Beast. He saw off Kiraly and Coyne initially who were superior in most aspects along with Grant for a while before eventually losing that battle and he wasn't a patch on Muric.

[123EasyasBFC]

Did I say it wasn’t prestigious?

Stop misquoting what I’m saying.

The EFL award is more prestigious. Muric didn’t win the golden gloves and also didn’t get in the official team of the season. They are just facts. You don’t need to get all mad about it

PFA is far far more prestigious, there is nothing more prestigious than winning something voted for by your peers

[dsr]

All this bluster could have been avoided if Trafford came in and played like the world beater that was predicted after his good performances at u21 level the summer he was bought.

The only time the results improved was when the second choice or lesser player in some peoples eyes came into the team. The keeper of the year in the division below, how bizarre when he is an “inferior” keeper that results improved so dramatically.

We went from conceeding 2.2 goals a game to just over one. But of course that was down to the defence

If Trafford came in and played a blinder there would have been no comments whatsoever and people would have been very happy to have unearthed a gem.


We can’t afraid to take £15-20m punts and that includes Tresor, Amdouni et al.

The biggest show of how much better Muric was than Trafford, was that Trafford conceded 25 goals against the teams that qualified for the Champions League, and Muric didn't concede any. If Muric had played all those without conceding a goal, we would have stopped up.

Of course, some would believe that including those matches in the averages gives a flawed comparison. So let's leave them out. Against teams that didn't qualify for the Champions League, Trafford conceded 1.85 goals per games, Muric 1.6 goals per game (which is a major stretch of the truth to call it "just over one").

[jojomk1]

SSN reporting that Newcastle have agreed personal terms with Trafford
So, can only presume Pace has allowed these discussions to take place therefore he must be keen to sell

[fatboy47]

Arse about face?

[Quickenthetempo]

Did I say it wasn’t prestigious?

Stop misquoting what I’m saying.

The EFL award is more prestigious. Muric didn’t win the golden gloves and also didn’t get in the official team of the season. They are just facts. You don’t need to get all mad about it

Who picks the EFL awards? Is it based on average ratings?

[NewClaret]

SSN reporting that Newcastle have agreed personal terms with Trafford
So, can only presume Pace has allowed these discussions to take place therefore he must be keen to sell

Fabrizio saying offers of £15m have been tabled.
Nixon saying we want £30m.
Andy Jones saying contact has been made but talks not advanced.

Hard to work out what on earth is going on.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Who picks the EFL awards? Is it based on average ratings?

They are selected by judges who are the leading experts in the industry.

I believe at one stage Ferguson was on the panel.

No idea who’s on it now.

[golden days]

Fabrizio saying offers of £15m have been tabled.
Nixon saying we want £30m.
Andy Jones saying contact has been made but talks not advanced.

Hard to work out what on earth is going on.

Probably shows how much guessing these so called experts do

[Goliath]

Probably shows how much guessing these so called experts do

Or it shows they have sources from different sides if the deal. It probably means they will end up somewhere in between those figures as a fee plus add ons that potentially get it towards the 30 mill figure if realised.
That would be my guess.

[Quickenthetempo]

They are selected by judges who are the leading experts in the industry.

I believe at one stage Ferguson was on the panel.

No idea who’s on it now.

How can you say they are leading experts in the industry?

I presume you mean Alex Ferguson? He watches Man Utd every game, so I don't think he's suitable for judging something he doesn't watch?

[Newcastleclaret93]

How can you say they are leading experts in the industry?

I presume you mean Alex Ferguson? He watches Man Utd every game, so I don't think he's suitable for judging something he doesn't watch?

I don’t say they are leading experts haha. The EFL website states all awards are decided by a panel of industry experts

[123EasyasBFC]

They are selected by judges who are the leading experts in the industry.

I believe at one stage Ferguson was on the panel.

No idea who’s on it now.

You don’t half talk some waffle mate hahaha ‘leading experts in the industry’

Ask any player and the most prestigious awards are those chosen by their peers

[Newcastleclaret93]

You don’t half talk some waffle mate hahaha ‘leading experts in the industry’

Ask any player and the most prestigious awards are those chosen by their peers

That is word for word what it says on the EFL website

[boatshed bill]

Only £15m bid?
I thought PL goalkeepers were worth a bit more than that.

[Silkyskills1]

I really would stop digging but then I hope I might check and re- check all of my facts/ information before making them public.

[IanMcL]

If Man City has a 20% sell on clause, we must have to achieve £25m to break even!

[boatshed bill]

i'd have kept trafford personally but seems like a good deal if he goes.

.

the arm chair premier supporters were criticizing him while the games were going on, nevermind when he'd made an error. to pretend it didnt happen is criminal.

This is 100% true.

[Spijed]

If Man City has a 20% sell on clause, we must have to achieve £25m to break even!

No, it's only 20% of any profit.

[KRBFC]

So because he gave the ball away that means his save percentage doesn’t mean anything? That’s a new one.

Muric also started the goal at spurs by playing a through ball to Berge

He also gave the ball away almost 20 times in the first half and let in a shot most keepers save. Staggering statistic for some apparently so calm and good on the ball.

[KRBFC]

If Man City has a 20% sell on clause, we must have to achieve £25m to break even!

That’s some awful math, congratulations.

Also is it a sell on % of the total sale, profit, does the sell on have an expiry date?

You’re just completely guessing and making up figures

[123EasyasBFC]

That is word for word what it says on the EFL website

You know full well PFA awards is more prestigious to players than the ones the EFL give them

[123EasyasBFC]

He also gave the ball away almost 20 times in the first half and let in a shot most keepers save. Staggering statistic for some apparently so calm and good on the ball.

Right and what’s your point, I replied to the poster who implied that his distribution means his save percentage doesn’t mean as much

[Vegas Claret]

another thread I wished I hadn't opened

[Wokingclaret]

It doesn't matter now how Trafford did for us, his call up to the England Squad will have turned his head, he will be moving on.

[Boss Hogg]

It doesn’t matter 123 he said he was in the championship team of the season.

That is factually incorrect. He wasn’t in it. He was in the PFA team of the season.

Does it really matter ? This was factually incorrect: Your post stating that Muric’s distribution was the only aspect of his goalkeeping that was better than Trafford.

[Shaggy]

We still having tantrum arguments about Trafford and Muric

I’ll come back later when it’s all calmed down.

[Vim Fuego]

Does it really matter ?

Nothing matters at all, the needle returns to the start of the song and we all sing along like before

Fellow Clarets. Never miss the chance to quote Del Amitri

[Vim Fuego]

Nothing matters at all, the needle returns to the start of the song and we all sing along like before

Fellow Clarets. Never miss the chance to quote Del Amitri

Roughly

[Rileybobs]

The reality is that both keepers are a very similar level. Muric is marginally better at defending and attacking whereas Trafford is the more controlled. Overall Muric takes it 213v212, but it does leave me wondering why the debate is so polarised when there is only one point between the two players.

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[Holtyclaret]

If Man City has a 20% sell on clause, we must have to achieve £25m to break even!

And if we’ve only paid circa £12m thus far for him £15m would be the breakeven point. £20m gives us a bag of chips and our bfh

[Bordeauxclaret]

another thread I wished I hadn't opened

I thought this thread would finally solve the debate between Trafford and Muric.
Alas we go on…

[spt_claret]

Always a laugh when people quote Youtube highlights as proof of a player's ability, reminds me of Bes Berisha and Fernando Guerrero. Also seeing a lot of waffle and hair splitting and people half quoting half-context of stats so I've taken an actual look. Anyone else can too- I recommend FBRef, but Sofascore is also pretty good, Whoscored more limited but covers the basics, and FOTMOB has som good stuff and very nifty visual representations for shots faced.

I could post a (very long) statistical comparison of Trafford and Muric to evidence & explain my thoughts but there's no easy way to abridge it without providing detail of interpretation and context (especially on the stat of 'Errors leading to shots/goals' which is based around active involvement with the ball rather than errors of passive non-involvement, which are much more ambiguous as a whole so ignored even in less ambiguous cases, to keep consistent metrics).

The stats say that Muric is very noticeably the better keeper- more capable of a glaring error (at least, an active one), but significantly more commanding of his box, better shot stopper, and a marginally worse 15-30 yard/own half passer than Trafford, identical at under 15 yards, but overall a better and especially at 30+yd (even moreso 40+ yd) range a MUCH more accurate passer, and all with a more aggressive/cavalier style that despite making more errors also results in more key defensive actions. Worth noting that Trafford and Muric were both top 1% for utilised keepers too- playing through the keeper was massive for us so playing Trafford was putting absurd levels of pressure on such a young keeper.

And Trafford's 0-30 yard passing was very accurate, he's not nearly as bad a short range passer as made out and slightly better at 15-30 yards (although attempts less at this range too, so it's less reliable data). It's the longer range he falls down, but his short range passing and, though behind Muric, still pretty solid outside-the-box defensive contributions, are why he's raved about for his potential.

I'd be disappointed to breakeven on Trafford as it goes against the whole purpose of signing him. It writes his season off as a busted flush (and given the sheer importance of the keeper in our system, ours too) and makes it more aggravating that he was hung out to dry so badly rather than given a chance to grow into the team via the League Cup, FA Cup etc. To the point that had their playing times been directly reversed, even if it changed nothing it would have made more sense. However, I also would be wary of sunk cost fallacy- if it's a flat choice between him or Muric for our #1 next year, I'd take a breakeven on Trafford and keep Muric, over take a profit on Muric and keep Trafford, I think it would significantly boost our odds of promotion to retain Muric AND would increase the potential sales price of Muric.

Trafford is very young. He was bought by us for potential, he's being mooted by other clubs for potential. He has potential, nobody is disputing that. But I think people forget Muric still has potential too- he's 25 which IS still relatively young for a keeper. Pope's PL breakthrough season came at 25, but then he got injured and only really re-established himself as our number one age 27. Heaton was already 27 when we signed him, you could argue he only really hit his stride age 29-31 when he got his England caps. Meanwhile Muric made the PFA Team of the Year (Not the EFL, as that distinction apparently matters) at 24, was hitting top-1%-percentile-per-90 measures on a LOT of metrics in his short run last season, and has improved rapidly- he was scary at first in the Championship, steady by the end. In the Prem he had wobbles, but his shot stopping and command of his area were miles ahead again of where he was the year before. He's got a huge potential for growth too, and, more importantly, is further along right now, which we need for bouncing back, so I'd sell Trafford, ideally for a profit but I'd settle for breakeven if it keeps Muric as #1, and wish James all the best for the future, with real sympathy as to how badly a young keeper was thrown to the wolves but also acknowledging that he's not what we needed, and we suffered for trying to develop him rather than play the guy we had.

[boatshed bill]

All well and good, but if we get promoted we'll need a better goalkeeper than either Muric or Trafford. That's why I hope we sell both and sign a new 'keeper. Also we should get Vigoroux off the payroll.

[CoolClaret]

*spts content*

Agreed with a lot of this - particularly about the demand VK placed on his keepers which is just ridiculous... but the accurate passing metric under 15 yards doesn't really paint a picture nor tell of the type of passes (speed etc) and the intent of them.

I found a lot of the short range passes Traff made were often purposeless - wouldn't advance play, lots of sideways passes between centre halves and lacked the courage to really pull the trigger to try anything more expansive and I believe that's why our play looked so, so laboured at times.

The long range one is the real important one for me, that's why I'm confident that with a new manager that has a better balance between playing out and going long Muric will be a real asset because I think his quick, accurate, long range passing is a talent and one that can be used to hurt teams.