Newcastle bid £15m for Trafford

[NewClaret]

All well and good, but if we get promoted we'll need a better goalkeeper than either Muric or Trafford. That's why I hope we sell both and sign a new 'keeper. Also we should get Vigoroux off the payroll.

Aro’s stats were some of the best in the league when he started playing. Bar his clangers he was exceptional. I can’t see a scenario where we find a better one than him, particularly with the ball at his feet. If he takes those errors out of his game he’s a top top keeper that will play at a much higher level than us.

Trafford is about to as well.

I’m not sure where we’re finding better keepers than either in our wage structure.

In Vigouroux, you want to get rid of him without ever seeing him play? If Trafford goes, and assuming Muric stays (I’m dubious on that, but let’s run with it), then it’s Muric, BPF and Vigouroux #3.

[pureclaret]

To be honest Im not bothered about who people think is better and what 0,1 better worse is , Im bothered that nobody seems to know , what we have actually paid for Trafford , what if any, add ons we owe, and ive seen reports from news and journo channels that say 20% of any sale we make and others to say 20% of amount above what we have paid. I ve seen somewhere that the reason for 20% of any sale was to stop us paying £12m for him and selling him, and selling him for £15m Giving us a quick £2.4m.

If it is 20% of any sale then we need to be getting a lot more than the quoted £15m Newcastle are to pay

[spt_claret]

Aro’s stats were some of the best in the league when he started playing. Bar his clangers he was exceptional. I can’t see a scenario where we find a better one than him, particularly with the ball at his feet. If he takes those errors out of his game he’s a top top keeper that will play at a much higher level than us.

Trafford is about to as well.

I’m not sure where we’re finding better keepers than either in our wage structure.

In Vigouroux, you want to get rid of him without ever seeing him play? If Trafford goes, and assuming Muric stays (I’m dubious on that, but let’s run with it), then it’s Muric, BPF and Vigouroux #3.

Muric was top 2% for save percentages, top 1% for goals conceded vs expected, top 1% for cross claim percentage, top 1% for crosses claimed per game (despite facing marginally fewer per game than Trafford), top 1% for defensive contributions outside his area. Passing doesn't come with percentiles for keepers but I'd be willing to bet from the FBRef and Sofascore data, his long range passing, chipped passes, and opposition half passing is pretty damn good percentile-wise for keepers.

Even allowing for all the excellent points in this blog (mostly re. save %, accounted for by the goals vs expected differential) https://blamethekeeper.blogspot.com/201 ... whole.html Muric's performance metrics are pretty incredible.

I was in favour of Muric over Trafford, I admit that. I also never booed Trafford, and always tried to get behind him even when he was struggling. I also said, when Muric came back in, how while I obviously wanted him to play well, I didn't want his performance to be as good as it was on that first game (MOTM) as I felt it'd make the debate even more toxic. Because it's toxic, some people reflexively defend Trafford and do down Muric, out of sympathy or desire to provide perspective or balance. I get it, but genuinely every bit of evidence from last season says Muric, as of right now, is a LOT better than Trafford at everything except 15-30yd passes where he's marginally less accurate, and on errors leading to goals, which is a very awkward stat to attribute but even if we accept it, doesn't outweigh everything else.

Even if you take Muric's 2 Opta errors leading to goals off his goals conceded/expected tally, and don't do the same for Trafford's 1 Opta error, it's still a better differential, and every other underlying measure is better. In fact, even if you extrapolate Muric's 2 in 10 to the same number of games as Trafford, and make it 6 in 10 (rounding up) he STILL has a better goals conceded/expected ratio.

Muric is a top, top keeper, which is why, if clubs do offer us profit on Trafford, we should all wish him the best for the future at a new club, sincerely.

[NewClaret]

spt_claret,

I won’t quote it all, but agree with all you say. Likewise I always thought Muric deserved to retain his place, which he did - it was Kompany’s biggest error by far - but also supported Trafford. He’ll become an excellent keeper and more quickly than most on here think with a decent defence in front of him and a team that doesn’t play such a high line.

I agree about selling Muric but we must also back that up with a big contract offer to extend Muric. The proceeds need to go to him in part because he only has 2 years left.

[IanMcL]

That’s some awful math, congratulations.

Also is it a sell on % of the total sale, profit, does the sell on have an expiry date?

You’re just completely guessing and making up figures

It was a generalisation, rather than an actual sum.

For actuality we would need to know what our liability is.
Up to £19m but prob less at this point.

Then add 20% of the eventually sale price, which is going to be 4 or more million.

So if a profit better than Manchester's £4m is to be achieved....the figure mounts.

[IanMcL]

It was a generalisation, rather than an actual sum.

For actuality we would need to know what our liability is.
Up to £19m but prob less at this point.

Then add 20% of the profit.

Just see a post saying 20% of 'profit', so that reduces the sum.

[Tall Paul]

The funny thing is we probably have 2 very good goalkeepers. But Kompany had managed to create a scenario where we could end up with neither.

However Muric was clearly a far superior keeper last season, anyone saying otherwise is talking nonsense. His value is much higher though because he's English which is probably why they signed him in the first place. Imagine what he'd have been worth if he'd had a good season.

Why does Trafford being English make his value higher than Muric's?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Why does Trafford being English make his value higher than Muric's?

Homegrown which is needed for European competitions

[Tall Paul]

Homegrown which is needed for European competitions

How does that increase his value over Muric who also qualifies as homegrown?

[Goliath]

Why does Trafford being English make his value higher than Muric's?

Young English players cost a premium generally but a keeper who's only about 21 and has PL experience even more so, they don't exist, he is the only one I can think of.

Even if he never becomes good enough to be number 1 at a big club then they've got a decent number 2 who helps to fill the homegrown quota for the next 10 years.

[123EasyasBFC]

Why does Trafford being English make his value higher than Muric's?

It happens frequently that English players are over valued

[The Project]

Homegrown which is needed for European competitions

I don't think nationality comes into the homegrown debate.

Its dependant on how many years you have come through a club under a certain age?
For example, Fabregas was always classed as homegrown.

We also need a certain amount of homegrown players in the Championship squad next season and Muric is classed as one of them.

[spt_claret]

Why does Trafford being English make his value higher than Muric's?

Rightly or wrongly, player nationality always factors into perceived value and perceived ability.
And from a value perspective its understandable, branding & player profile is a huge part of football nowadays, personality players sell shirts and tickets. A player from a bigger, or more affluent, or more football-engaged nation, is always of greater brand value than a player from a smaller nation, especially when it comes to the national stage, because:
1- it's harder to get into a big national team, so even if 2 players are of equal ability, the one in the higher-rank team is perceived better, higher status, more valuable etc. A good example would be Modric vs the likes of Iniesta, Xavi or David Silva. All amongst the world's best midfielders for a very long time, but for a long time Modric was not not perceived on the same level (And he wasn't perceived on their level prior to 2018 whatever people might now remember- most people always ranked those 3 as significantly ahead of him) and part of that was down to- Croatia were a smaller nation than Spain, lesser international team, the ability needed to play for that nation is lower so perceived ability of Modric is therefore lowered. If Modric had been from an even smaller nation, say Albania, that would be even more the case.

2- A bigger nation with more affluent, engaged or just plain numerous fans, has more marketing potential on the international stage. Trafford as an England keeper is much more marketable than Muric as a Kosovo keeper, because there's a lot more England supporters than Kosovo ones, England's a wealthier on average nation, so more money in the fanbase. Ergo his value is higher, because his off-pitch value as a marketable investment is higher, especially in a position like goalkeeper which is not necessarily as glamorous as some where you can be the guy all the kids on the playground want to be, so things like national stature mean more.

Take Messi for example. He would be no lesser a player if he was Bolivian, but he would be a far less marketable player and so perceived as less valuable. He wouldn't be reaching as many major international tournaments/finals so wouldn't have that brand status or trophies to add to his list, he wouldn't have the huge fanbase & history of the Argentine national support, he wouldn't have the inbuilt marketing comparison to Maradona. A significant portion of a player's value now is based in their off-pitch qualities including nationality- it's why signing Lyle Foster has helped to grow Burnley's brand in Africa as a continent, largely because we didn't have ANY international player from Africa as a whole to provide a footing there, so even if he's most valuable with South African spectators he grows us in nearby nations by proximity. But Muric isn't going to grow our brand much in Europe or the Balkans in general, in Kosovo sure but that's still far less marketable than an England international/future international keeper to an English audience.

[Rileybobs]

Also worth bearing in mind that an English player is likely by default be able to speak and understand English, have a network of family and friends in the country, have certain values and interests that are aligned with team mates and generally be more of a known quantity. I imagine the same goes for Spanish players in Spain, German players in Germany etc.

Also, easier to get good character references etc from coaches who have worked with players throughout their development in this country.

[ecc]

Rightly or wrongly, player nationality always factors into perceived value and perceived ability.
And from a value perspective its understandable, branding & player profile is a huge part of football nowadays, personality players sell shirts and tickets. A player from a bigger, or more affluent, or more football-engaged nation, is always of greater brand value than a player from a smaller nation, especially when it comes to the national stage, because:
1- it's harder to get into a big national team, so even if 2 players are of equal ability, the one in the higher-rank team is perceived better, higher status, more valuable etc. A good example would be Modric vs the likes of Iniesta, Xavi or David Silva. All amongst the world's best midfielders for a very long time, but for a long time Modric was not not perceived on the same level (And he wasn't perceived on their level prior to 2018 whatever people might now remember- most people always ranked those 3 as significantly ahead of him) and part of that was down to- Croatia were a smaller nation than Spain, lesser international team, the ability needed to play for that nation is lower so perceived ability of Modric is therefore lowered. If Modric had been from an even smaller nation, say Albania, that would be even more the case.

2- A bigger nation with more affluent, engaged or just plain numerous fans, has more marketing potential on the international stage. Trafford as an England keeper is much more marketable than Muric as a Kosovo keeper, because there's a lot more England supporters than Kosovo ones, England's a wealthier on average nation, so more money in the fanbase. Ergo his value is higher, because his off-pitch value as a marketable investment is higher, especially in a position like goalkeeper which is not necessarily as glamorous as some where you can be the guy all the kids on the playground want to be, so things like national stature mean more.

Take Messi for example. He would be no lesser a player if he was Bolivian, but he would be a far less marketable player and so perceived as less valuable. He wouldn't be reaching as many major international tournaments/finals so wouldn't have that brand status or trophies to add to his list, he wouldn't have the huge fanbase & history of the Argentine national support, he wouldn't have the inbuilt marketing comparison to Maradona. A significant portion of a player's value now is based in their off-pitch qualities including nationality- it's why signing Lyle Foster has helped to grow Burnley's brand in Africa as a continent, largely because we didn't have ANY international player from Africa as a whole to provide a footing there, so even if he's most valuable with South African spectators he grows us in nearby nations by proximity. But Muric isn't going to grow our brand much in Europe or the Balkans in general, in Kosovo sure but that's still far less marketable than an England international/future international keeper to an English audience.

You make some excellent points, spt-claret.

Your example of Luka Modric is spot on.

[boatshed bill]

Aro’s stats were some of the best in the league when he started playing. Bar his clangers he was exceptional. I can’t see a scenario where we find a better one than him, particularly with the ball at his feet. If he takes those errors out of his game he’s a top top keeper that will play at a much higher level than us.

Trafford is about to as well.

I’m not sure where we’re finding better keepers than either in our wage structure.

In Vigouroux, you want to get rid of him without ever seeing him play? If Trafford goes, and assuming Muric stays (I’m dubious on that, but let’s run with it), then it’s Muric, BPF and Vigouroux #3.

If we had the money from the sale of all 3 we could buy one really good goalkeeper, add BPF as 2nd choice and whoever's best out of the U21s as 3rd choice.

[NewClaret]

If we had the money from the sale of all 3 we could buy one really good goalkeeper, add BPF as 2nd choice and whoever's best out of the U21s as 3rd choice.

Who’ve you got in mind that’s better than the goalkeepers we have that premier league clubs are looking to buy and pay much higher wages to?

[CoolClaret]

Rightly or wrongly, player nationality always factors into perceived value and perceived ability.
And from a value perspective its understandable, branding & player profile is a huge part of football nowadays, personality players sell shirts and tickets. A player from a bigger, or more affluent, or more football-engaged nation, is always of greater brand value than a player from a smaller nation, especially when it comes to the national stage, because:
1- it's harder to get into a big national team, so even if 2 players are of equal ability, the one in the higher-rank team is perceived better, higher status, more valuable etc. A good example would be Modric vs the likes of Iniesta, Xavi or David Silva. All amongst the world's best midfielders for a very long time, but for a long time Modric was not not perceived on the same level (And he wasn't perceived on their level prior to 2018 whatever people might now remember- most people always ranked those 3 as significantly ahead of him) and part of that was down to- Croatia were a smaller nation than Spain, lesser international team, the ability needed to play for that nation is lower so perceived ability of Modric is therefore lowered. If Modric had been from an even smaller nation, say Albania, that would be even more the case.

2- A bigger nation with more affluent, engaged or just plain numerous fans, has more marketing potential on the international stage. Trafford as an England keeper is much more marketable than Muric as a Kosovo keeper, because there's a lot more England supporters than Kosovo ones, England's a wealthier on average nation, so more money in the fanbase. Ergo his value is higher, because his off-pitch value as a marketable investment is higher, especially in a position like goalkeeper which is not necessarily as glamorous as some where you can be the guy all the kids on the playground want to be, so things like national stature mean more.

Take Messi for example. He would be no lesser a player if he was Bolivian, but he would be a far less marketable player and so perceived as less valuable. He wouldn't be reaching as many major international tournaments/finals so wouldn't have that brand status or trophies to add to his list, he wouldn't have the huge fanbase & history of the Argentine national support, he wouldn't have the inbuilt marketing comparison to Maradona. A significant portion of a player's value now is based in their off-pitch qualities including nationality- it's why signing Lyle Foster has helped to grow Burnley's brand in Africa as a continent, largely because we didn't have ANY international player from Africa as a whole to provide a footing there, so even if he's most valuable with South African spectators he grows us in nearby nations by proximity. But Muric isn't going to grow our brand much in Europe or the Balkans in general, in Kosovo sure but that's still far less marketable than an England international/future international keeper to an English audience.

This is spot on and further highlights just how far removed from being 'sport' the professional game actually is in 2024. It's sports entertainment now, isn't it?

The Americanisation of literally everything continues...

[boatshed bill]

Who’ve you got in mind that’s better than the goalkeepers we have that premier league clubs are looking to buy and pay much higher wages to?

My concern is that neither of our nos1 and 2 'keepers will be any better in 2 seasons time. We need to find a new Tom Heaton.
I am a big fan of Cooper at Plymouth, I think he will have a very good career. There may be very good 'keepers coming through PL academies who would benefit from a season on loan. BPF is certainly adequate cover at Championship level.

[equinox]

Both keepers were exposed by our tactics last year.

Muric more so.

[boatshed bill]

Both keepers were exposed by our tactics last year.

Muric more so.

Exposed? Or not good enough?

[equinox]

Exposed? Or not good enough?

Hmmm, I think if both were asked to be just 'goalkeepers' they'd be fine, Trafford was asked to play too far forward (and got lobbed), Muric was asked to play as a playmaker (and got mugged).

[boatshed bill]

Hmmm, I think if both were asked to be just 'goalkeepers' they'd be fine, Trafford was asked to play too far forward (and got lobbed), Muric was asked to play as a playmaker (and got mugged).

But the point with Muric is that his distribution was seen as a real strong point, and wasn't all that. Moreover it hardly compensated for his occasional carelessness.
Trafford may well go on to better things, but not with Burnley.

[CoolClaret]

But the point with Muric is that his distribution was seen as a real strong point, and wasn't all that. Moreover it hardly compensated for his occasional carelessness.
Trafford may well go on to better things, but not with Burnley.

No, it actually was all that.

For the gazillionth time. Just have a manager that doesn't have the keeper touching the ball 90+ times a game. His ability to hit pin point passes to wingers/strikers in stride is seriously impressive.

Sander Berge doesn't get crucified for some poor mistakes that lead directly to goals when dwelling on the ball/poor passes in our own half but really it's no different than Aro's.

Incidents like that is on the manager's tactics and why his vanity project was utterly ridiculous.

I'm not sure how many times it needs explaining.

[KRBFC]

No, it actually was all that.

For the gazillionth time. Just have a manager that doesn't have the keeper touching the ball 90+ times a game. His ability to hit pin point passes to wingers/strikers in stride is seriously impressive.

Sander Berge doesn't get crucified for some poor mistakes that lead directly to goals when dwelling on the ball/poor passes in our own half but really it's no different than Aro's.

Incidents like that is on the manager's tactics and why his vanity project was utterly ridiculous.

I'm not sure how many times it needs explaining.

Muric lost the ball almost 20 times in the first half against Spurs, whilst technically he might be good kicking the ball his rash nature and awful decision making coughed the ball up so much. It’s easy to blame others though

[boatshed bill]

No, it actually was all that.

For the gazillionth time. Just have a manager that doesn't have the keeper touching the ball 90+ times a game. His ability to hit pin point passes to wingers/strikers in stride is seriously impressive.

Sander Berge doesn't get crucified for some poor mistakes that lead directly to goals when dwelling on the ball/poor passes in our own half but really it's no different than Aro's.

Incidents like that is on the manager's tactics and why his vanity project was utterly ridiculous.

I'm not sure how many times it needs explaining.

Is believing, and stating as an opinion, really "crucifying" these two.
I will stand by my comment that should we get promoted next season neither Muric or Trafford will have improved enough to cut it at PL level.
I don't get why people blame Kompany for playing to what has long been purported to be one of Muric's strengths

[CoolClaret]

Muric lost the ball almost 20 times in the first half against Spurs, whilst technically he might be good kicking the ball his rash nature and awful decision making coughed the ball up so much. It’s easy to blame others though

No that's not right.

Tactics and drilling passing out from the back and doing training ground moves up and down the pitch is what results in that. He has the stones to keep trying it even when he's made a mistake. Traff didn't, he'd dwell on the ball, do nothing and give unadventurous 5-15 yard passes to the centre halves and back unless someone was in acres of space.

Muric forced it yes and got caught at times but... So what?

I'd much rather that than someone that doesn't have the ability to launch accurate, long range passes. Tempering that and shifting play style to not force situations in the game is much easier than getting a keeper that can launch it 50-70 yards at pace with accuracy.

[KRBFC]

No that's not right.

Tactics and drilling passing out from the back and doing training ground moves up and down the pitch is what results in that. He has the stones to keep trying it even when he's made a mistake. Traff didn't, he'd dwell on the ball, do nothing and give unadventurous 5-15 yard passes to the centre halves and back unless someone was in acres of space.

Muric forced it yes and got caught at times but... So what?

I'd much rather that than someone that doesn't have the ability to launch accurate, long range passes. Tempering that and shifting play style to not force situations in the game is much easier than getting a keeper that can launch it 50-70 yards at pace with accuracy.

You have to pick your times, absolute brainlessly picking the wrong option over and over again isn’t admirable. We were 1-0 up and we’ve got a keeper going through a spell where he can’t pass 5 yards yet he keeps doing it and giving it away.

The FA cup game at Spurs he throws the ball out in a hurry without inspecting the field (he has the best view of the pitch) we concede from it. 2 minutes later he rolls the ball out inside his area to a Spurs attacker. Clearly didn’t learn from his first mistake and does the same thing again.

Now you’re putting the entire blame on Kompany which is just ridiculous. The thing Kompany got wrong is not signing a first choice keeper who was good enough.

[CoolClaret]

Is believing, and stating as an opinion, really "crucifying" these two.
I will stand by my comment that should we get promoted next season neither Muric or Trafford will have improved enough to cut it at PL level.
I don't get why people blame Kompany for playing to what has long been purported to be one of Muric's strengths

It is a strength - just doesn't mean that you have to use it all the time, nor does it mean that he can play 38/46 games a season tearing teams apart from goalkeeper single handedly.. literally no keeper, nor player on earth could.

Midfielders give the ball away all the time when they attempt to make progressive passes forward, the mistakes (if you can call them that) just aren't obvious because it happens 35+ yard away from goal.

I don't know what's so hard to comprehend? If you ask players to play out at all times you're going to get caught out over the course of a season, should be more balanced - pick and choose moments dependent on the situation.

Kompany gets blamed because they're ridiculous, non-situational stupid tactics. I guarantee if Aro put his foot through it in training/in games when pressured instead of either standing on the ball or attempting the riskier pass he'd have gotten absolutely b0llocked.

Might sound harsh, but I don't think you understand what you're watching.

Pope would have looked absolutely awful if he was in net for us last year. Like, rotten.

[equinox]

...but he nutmegged a player though.

[boatshed bill]

The thing Kompany got wrong is not signing a first choice keeper who was good enough.

I believe he'd have chosen to sign Verbruggen over Trafford.
Burnley or Brighton? Obvious, isn't it?

[CoolClaret]

You have to pick your times, absolute brainlessly picking the wrong option over and over again isn’t admirable. We were 1-0 up and we’ve got a keeper going through a spell where he can’t pass 5 yards yet he keeps doing it and giving it away.

The FA cup game at Spurs he throws the ball out in a hurry without inspecting the field (he has the best view of the pitch) we concede from it. 2 minutes later he rolls the ball out inside his area to a Spurs attacker. Clearly didn’t learn from his first mistake and does the same thing again.

Now you’re putting the entire blame on Kompany which is just ridiculous. The thing Kompany got wrong is not signing a first choice keeper who was good enough.

I'm putting the blame on Kompany yes because he's the manager.

Why do you think we didn't see this sort of thing under Dyche? It's a form of risk management.

Again - I'd prefer to temper an eager keeper (any player on the pitch really) with the minerals and ability to hit the Hollywood passes than a keeper that cannot.

[CoolClaret]

The entire team took up more advanced/wider positions on the pitch when Muric was in net and on the whole, moved the ball through the lines much more effectively.

We went from being shite and borderline unwatchable to slightly less **** and at least a bit entertaining.

It was still borderline insane from the manager and his disastrous, stupid tactics.

[boatshed bill]

It is a strength - just doesn't mean that you have to use it all the time, nor does it mean that he can play 38/46 games a season tearing teams apart from goalkeeper single handedly.. literally no keeper, nor player on earth could.

Midfielders give the ball away all the time when they attempt to make progressive passes forward, the mistakes (if you can call them that) just aren't obvious because it happens 35+ yard away from goal.

I don't know what's so hard to comprehend? If you ask players to play out at all times you're going to get caught out over the course of a season, should be more balanced - pick and choose moments dependent on the situation.

Kompany gets blamed because they're ridiculous, non-situational stupid tactics. I guarantee if Aro put his foot through it in training/in games when pressured instead of either standing on the ball or attempting the riskier pass he'd have gotten absolutely b0llocked.

Might sound harsh, but I don't think you understand what you're watching.

Pope would have looked absolutely awful if he was in net for us last year. Like, rotten.

You can take it from me that I do know what I'm watching. You seem to think that we never played long, or medium length balls. you seem to believe that you know for fact that playing out from the back was our only way of playing..it wasn't.
Nearer to truth is that we just weren't good enough to exercise the game plan. Out of interest, how many goals did we actually concede through playing short balls out of defence? And are you 100% sure things wouldn't have been worse had we mainly played it long?

[CoolClaret]

You can take it from me that I do know what I'm watching. You seem to think that we never played long, or medium length balls. you seem to believe that you know for fact that playing out from the back was our only way of playing..it wasn't.
Nearer to truth is that we just weren't good enough to exercise the game plan. Out of interest, how many goals did we actually concede through playing short balls out of defence? And are you 100% sure things wouldn't have been worse had we mainly played it long?

Of course we played long/medium length balls, just not at anywhere near the frequency and we absolutely tried to force far too much. I'm absolutely 100% sure that we'd have faired better with different personnel/tactical choices, yes.

We had one of the highest defensive lines (89th percentile) across the top 7 leagues in Europe and our keepers touched the ball more than any other.

It's just guaranteeing mistakes when you're an underdog. A great manager maximises what talent he has at his/her disposal and creates a system/gameplan/tactics to maximise the collective.

Any mug can keep buying players till they have exactly who they need for their 'style', moreover, we will never be able to afford a manager that luxury at Burnley and is another reason as to why we're better off without VK.

[boatshed bill]

Of course we played long/medium length balls, just not at anywhere near the frequency and we absolutely tried to force far too much. I'm absolutely 100% sure that we'd have faired better with different personnel/tactical choices, yes.

We had one of the highest defensive lines (89th percentile) across the top 7 leagues in Europe and our keepers touched the ball more than any other.

It's just guaranteeing mistakes when you're an underdog. A great manager maximises what talent he has at his/her disposal and creates a system/gameplan/tactics to maximise the collective.

Any mug can keep buying players till they have exactly who they need for their 'style', moreover, we will never be able to afford a manager that luxury at Burnley and is another reason as to why we're better off without VK.

Interesting points; but my opinion remains that we would do better, if we get promoted, if we have better goalkeepers. It's irrefutable

[123EasyasBFC]

We basically wasted a year of Muric’s development by bringing in Trafford to start straight away which was on kompany

[Darnhill Claret]

Those complaining about Trafford's passing and those complaining about Muric's passing, seem to think they would be better just kicking it clear without attempting to pass to a teammate, or so it seems. Would that not result in more complaints about their distribution, or am I missing something?

[Vim Fuego]

Any mug can keep buying players till they have exactly who they need for their 'style', moreover, we will never be able to afford a manager that luxury at Burnley and is another reason as to why we're better off without VK.

Yes. A good manager is one that can take a group of players, understand all their skills, and get the maximum out of them to get results. Be adaptable. Something that VK clearly was not.

[CoolClaret]

Yes. A good manager is one that can take a group of players, understand all their skills, and get the maximum out of them to get results. Be adaptable. Something that VK clearly was not.

Even Pep at times in the title run in this/last year lumped it long up to Haaland.

Don Carlo against City employed vastly different tactics/playstyle than he does against weaker sides in La Liga.

I genuinely thought last season VK would have tempered our style just a tad and try to counter teams more - thought we had the personnel for it as well but no, had to get battered every week 'playing football the right way', whatever that means.

[Goliath]

Even Pep at times in the title run in this/last year lumped it long up to Haaland.

Don Carlo against City employed vastly different tactics/playstyle than he does against weaker sides in La Liga.

I genuinely thought last season VK would have tempered our style just a tad and try to counter teams more - thought we had the personnel for it as well but no, had to get battered every week 'playing football the right way', whatever that means.

He did to be fair for a chunk of the season. We were better defensively but the results didn't come.

[CoolClaret]

He did to be fair for a chunk of the season. We were better defensively but the results didn't come.

Played a bit longer at times but still had an insanely high defensive line and carried players like Amdouni when we were crying out for a third midfielder.

Didn't tweak it anywhere near enough - slowed our play down, played more risk averse but it was turgid. Never tried to hit teams on the break hardly.

[golden days]

Even Pep at times in the title run in this/last year lumped it long up to Haaland.

Don Carlo against City employed vastly different tactics/playstyle than he does against weaker sides in La Liga.

I genuinely thought last season VK would have tempered our style just a tad and try to counter teams more - thought we had the personnel for it as well but no, had to get battered every week 'playing football the right way', whatever that means.

We didn't have an Haaland to lump it long to though

[CoolClaret]

We didn't have an Haaland to lump it long to though

You don't say Nori!

Had 11 wingers though, still ended up with Vitinho at right mid

[spt_claret]

Muric lost the ball almost 20 times in the first half against Spurs, whilst technically he might be good kicking the ball his rash nature and awful decision making coughed the ball up so much. It’s easy to blame others though

Nobody wants me to quote all the stats at length so I'll leave it at this:

Muric's passing accuracy stats last season were ridiculously good. Trafford's were excellent at 0-15 yards and 15-30 yards, Muric matched him at 0-15, was slightly behind Trafford on 15-30 yards, blew Trafford away at 30+ yards and especially at 40+ yards, and played more passes per game on average which suggests his numbers are pretty reliable, even if we have less total games therefore total passes to compare against. His ranged passing accuracy was excellent. His overall passing accuracy was also quite a lot higher than Trafford's. In other words- yes he's not quite as good at 15-30 yard passes but he's overall a better passer, so much so that he can be a more accurate passer despite passing further on average and more frequently on average.

You keep highlighting the Spurs game as if it proves anything. It doesn't really prove anything beyond- teams that press aggressively are more likely to win the ball when keepers pass at short to medium range, and that against that press Muric's closer range passing was slightly less accurate- possibly down to him, possibly defensive response to the press, probably a combination but I'll put it down to him to keep you happy.

This is without considering the other metrics of his performance, which were also all significantly ahead of Trafford except errors leading to goals (which even if you scale that up massively over a full season, he still predicts a better goals coneded vs expected than Trafford). And no, I'm not saying Trafford's crap, before you say that. He's not, but you're clutching at straws for reasons to do down Muric over a keeper who, though still decent and full of potential, he is better than at most measures.

[ClaretPete001]

We didn't have an Haaland to lump it long to though

Lyle Foster is the kind of player that likes to play off centre backs shoulders. With a 3 man midfield and two quick wingers along with Foster you have the perfect team for counter attacking.

With actually happened is we played a high defensive line congested the space for the pacy wingers and for Foster and left big gaps in transition for PL quality to players to run into...!

Teams just came and sat in for 20 minutes and waited for the inevitable to happen.

[KRBFC]

Nobody wants me to quote all the stats at length so I'll leave it at this:

Muric's passing accuracy stats last season were ridiculously good. Trafford's were excellent at 0-15 yards and 15-30 yards, Muric matched him at 0-15, was slightly behind Trafford on 15-30 yards, blew Trafford away at 30+ yards and especially at 40+ yards, and played more passes per game on average which suggests his numbers are pretty reliable, even if we have less total games therefore total passes to compare against. His ranged passing accuracy was excellent. His overall passing accuracy was also quite a lot higher than Trafford's. In other words- yes he's not quite as good at 15-30 yard passes but he's overall a better passer, so much so that he can be a more accurate passer despite passing further on average and more frequently on average.

You keep highlighting the Spurs game as if it proves anything. It doesn't really prove anything beyond- teams that press aggressively are more likely to win the ball when keepers pass at short to medium range, and that against that press Muric's closer range passing was slightly less accurate- possibly down to him, possibly defensive response to the press, probably a combination but I'll put it down to him to keep you happy.

This is without considering the other metrics of his performance, which were also all significantly ahead of Trafford except errors leading to goals (which even if you scale that up massively over a full season, he still predicts a better goals coneded vs expected than Trafford). And no, I'm not saying Trafford's crap, before you say that. He's not, but you're clutching at straws for reasons to do down Muric over a keeper who, though still decent and full of potential, he is better than at most measures.

I don’t care to read your waffle, bringing up irrelevant stats. I don’t know why you’re trying to turn it into a Trafford v Muric debate when I said multiple times I don’t think either of them are good enough and I’d sell both.

[spt_claret]

I don’t care to read your waffle, bringing up irrelevant stats. I don’t know why you’re trying to turn it into a Trafford v Muric debate when I said multiple times I don’t think either of them are good enough and I’d sell both.

How are passing stats irrelevant to a comment about someone being bad at passing and giving the ball away? The thread is about Trafford, you've come in going on about Muric giving the ball away loads, pretty reasonable to conclude you're making a comparison.

I don't care for 99% of your posts either, you don't wanna read my posts, hit the Foe list button mate, you can ignore them.

[dsr]

The entire team took up more advanced/wider positions on the pitch when Muric was in net and on the whole, moved the ball through the lines much more effectively.

We went from being [deleted] and borderline unwatchable to slightly less **** and at least a bit entertaining.

It was still borderline insane from the manager and his disastrous, stupid tactics.

I think you're romancing a bit about being a bit entertaining. At least, the 5 home games he played in were Brentford, Wolves, Brighton, Newcastle, Forest, and I don't remember the entertainment except perhaps against Brentford. And there I think the win was more to do with it than the flowing football.

[jlup1980]

Lyle Foster is the kind of player that likes to play off centre backs shoulders. With a 3 man midfield and two quick wingers along with Foster you have the perfect team for counter attacking.

With actually happened is we played a high defensive line congested the space for the pacy wingers and for Foster and left big gaps in transition for PL quality to players to run into...!

Teams just came and sat in for 20 minutes and waited for the inevitable to happen.

I'm forgotten what kind of player Lyle is, he disappeared in November. One to ship out this summer if we can, although I suspect this is very unlikely. We saw in his first 6 months that he won't get the chance to play off the CB shoulder in the Championship and he certainly can't link the play well, he just gets in the way. He's been a massive disappointment on the whole. A 10 game purple patch at the start of last season doesn't paper over the cracks.